I'm finding it difficult to understand why the two differ in their flavour outputs. If I'm not wrong, both increase extraction? I have been playing around with an older coffee (roasted mid Nov 22); * 14g in, 30.8g out, 31 seconds (was aiming for a 1 : 2.3 ratio)- awful tasting, astringent finish, no specific notes, just not a nice coffee * 14g in, 41.7g out, 27 seconds (was aiming for a 1 : 3 ratio) - much nicer, lovely sweetness, way more balanced, specific notes were present, actually enjoyable I think going a touch coarser may even improve it more. I started off somewhere in between those 2 results, and started to grind finer first. When I got a horrible result I went the other way and it transformed the coffee. Sometimes coffee gives great results sticking to the "typical" parameters, sometimes not. Can someone please explain to me like I'm five, what the difference is between grinding finer, and increasing yield? And is there any way to gauge how a coffee will give the best results?

At too short a ratio, grinding ever finer can reach a ceiling, then because water can't permeate the puck, extraction drops if you go finer still, then your coffee will be both sour & bitter - sour from under-extraction and bitter because it's full of silt. At a given grind setting, increasing extraction (to a point) is more easily done by passing more water through the puck...there is a trade off though, longer brew ratios ultimately make a weaker drink. There won't be any overlap in strength between a 1:2 shot and a 1:3 shot at typical extraction levels. There isn't anything particularly atypical about a 1:3 shot. I have pulled many, many shots between 1:4 and 1:6, ratio is more linked to flavour balance vs coffee solubility. So a darker more Italian style coffee I may pull more like 1:2 to 1:3. A light roasted, or less soluble bean I might pull `longer. It can be easier to detect separate flavours in a more diluted shot. For less soluble coffees it can actually be very hard to over-extract, even at 1:5, though siltier cups might be less`tasty & flat, long before over-extraction happens. (Extraction is based on solubles dissolved in the coffee, solids are not dissolved but can still have an adverse effect on flavour if in too high a proportion). In short, I play with ratio a lot, but my grind adjustments are relatively small.

So if we stick with the coffee I was using (for ease of my understanding) - using my grinder there was a 1.5 notch difference (I have no idea what that translates to, but I have no other way to convey to you how much/little I changed the grind setting) in the SPTK38. Given I had to change grind setting to get that second output which gave me a tastier shot, if I had not changed grind setting but still aimed for 1:3 it would have taken perhaps 40 seconds? Would that shot have tasted the same as the one where I did change grind settings and used a 1:3 ratio?

@"DrForinor"#p35377 I don't really pay too much attention to shot time, if it took 40s and tasted OK, I wouldn't sweat it. If it didn't taste OK, I'd go coarser. I don't really expect shots at different grinds to taste the same (maybe characteristic of the coffee still, just differences in brightness vs drier & more mouthfeel), because what you percieve is a mix of both dissolved & undissolved coffee, so maybe the extraction would only be a bit different, but if you were too fine, the flavour would be maybe flat, less balanced

There is a barista hustle that goes through tuning a bean and explains what can happen. A free one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BT7-yOUMDM Different beans will need different tuning. Rules? Not any really. LOL I posted this elsewhere due to 1 to 2 in 30sec merchants but the web is so firm on that probably wasting my time. People seem more interested in that than how the coffee tastes. Pallets vary as well. As the video says a refractometer is not needed really. It's all about taste not set numbers. It's possible to get an idea of tuning at the commercial end for free. In short they are interesting in cost per shot and probably time too. Maximise yield figures but that will need a blend that suites. Shot time. I have noticed sone that are rather short. New beans and new machine. I obtained an awful taste and smell. I was using 14g which meant expansion was being limited reducing flow rates. Over filled basket. Stupid of me really. Cut back to 12.5g and bad aspects gone. A ratio of a bit over 3 gives a strong flat taste. When I cut back to \~2,5 I expect a bite to be added while drinking it, one that fades which is what the bean should provide. Some prefer this bean with less water flowing through - reducing shot time not grind,

I'm still confused, if I'm honest. How do I know taste wise where I have went wrong, in relation to grind vs yield? Meaning, if it tastes bitter, how do I know if I have went too fine, or my ratio is too high?

@"DrForinor"#p35487 So 1:3 with this coffee, at 1.5 notches coarser than the less pleasant 1:2 shot, worked well. Do you feel that you need to adjust anything, given the shot was as you described? I wouldn't adjust anything with this coffee, until a few shots in succession show the same fault. If the next coffee/successive brews with this coffee start becoming sharp/tart, try a slightly finer grind. If you can't shake the sharpness/tartness with grind adjustment, or the shot is very sharp/tart go longer on the ratio. If shots with another coffee are flat/silty/muddled in flavour without sharpness/tartness, shorten the ratio, if this doesn't fix it, grind coarser. If shots taste balanced at long ratios, but are just too weak & lacking intensity, try a shorter ratio and grind finer if tartness/sharpness creep in. Bitterness can be inherent in coffee, some coffees just have more than others, without knowing the coffee itself it's hard to advise. So look for other defects as well as the bitterness (chalky/powdery mouthfeel, lack of acidity). Over-extraction is a very specific bitterness, very drying and smoky, dominating the flavour. It is often very difficult to do in espresso at 1:2 or 1:3 even if you tried hard. I don't think advice to adjust based on bitterness (in general) alone is very useful. I find sharpness/tartness a better indicator (as opposed to pleasing, fruit like acidity bearing in mind some fruit are sour - it's that puckering sourness we want to avoid) as this is pretty much always under-extraction. Also if the shot is so intense that it is preventing you from determining quite how it tastes, go longer.

@"MWJB"#p35489 Ok that helped a great deal there, know what to look for taste wise and how to adjust. Thank you!!!! When I say bitterness, I'm getting a dry astringent finish. If I get this, do I go shorter with the ratio, or keep ratio same and grind coarser?

Another query, as a coffee ages - as a general rule - to get a better result from it what seems to work better with grind/ratio? Finer/coarser? Longer/shorter? Or is there no general rule, and go purely on taste?

> @"DrForinor"#p35490 When I say bitterness, I’m getting a dry astringent finish. If I get this, do I go shorter with the ratio, or keep ratio same and grind coarser? If the intensity of strength of the shot is acceptable, I'd grind coarser in the first instance.

> @"MWJB"#p35492 If the intensity of strength of the shot is acceptable, I’d grind coarser in the first instance. If I'm getting the same finish (dry), very little sweetness, very little of the indicated notes, still stick with that same protocol?

Grind finer vs Increase yield - confused

DrForinor

Same coffee, grind size 12 (1 finer than my last shot), 14g in, 32.1g out, 27 sec total. Some sweetness but slightly less than in shot 3, much nicer body and mouthfeel, got caramel which I wasn’t getting before, and some of the smoky thing going from shot 2 which I didn’t enjoy (very faint but it’s there).

This shot has been the most balanced by far, and the aftertaste in the mouth also feels the most balanced, the most pleasant.

So now it would be best to keep it at the same grind, but pull it to perhaps 30g? or a straight 1 : 2, so 28g?

MWJB

Sure try 28g (the difference between 30 & 32g isn’t that much and the extraction will be tailing off towards the end of the shot).

DrForinor

The shot seemed to speed up towards the end, normal?

The only thing I did differently this time was not tap the portafilter on the side. I was finding when I was doing that the grounds would shift and then I have a tendency to tap the other side to get them to balance and in doing that it’s a variable that was wildly inconsistent. This time when I loaded the basket, I tried to load it as evenly as possible and then 2 hard taps on the tamping mat, then tamp. I’ll stick with this method until I get the new grinder in.

MWJB

Shots do speed up towards the end, the puck erodes and the viscosity of the liquid also declines as the shot progresses.

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