The DF64V is the grinder that has got me the most excited so far in 2022. It's said to be top quality engineering and build, variable RPM (500 - 1800), DLC coated burrs with reportedly similar/same geometry as SSP High Uniformity burrs, magnetic chute, collar-style dial with stepless adjustment, super easy to clean, ultra low retention and is built in such as was so as to make changing burrs as easy and simple as possible. Add a brushless 300w motor and it's sounding less budget and more premium. Here are a couple of pre-release videos to whet your appetite: https://youtu.be/QU4pqKqREYs https://youtu.be/Jev1oaRGykg I've taken the plunge and pre-ordered. ETA late June.

Looks very well made and the variable RPM is interesting. The guy seems happy with both filter and espresso; and, suggested lower RPM if some one wants more clarity over body and the choice between DF64V and DF83 is very difficult. Perhaps, one day, they will replicate a DF83 version. It's a only a question of time before we see another Niche Killer review popping up from the influencer. :-) Let's know how you got on Tom. As usual, we look forward to your detailed review.

@"tompoland"#p40156 Looks like a nifty upgrade for the DF64 series. The magnetic chute is pretty cool, and certainly makes cleaning a lot easier. There's also a video of the DF64V being used to make an espresso. The one disadvantage that I see when comparing to my DF83 is that the grind time is about twice as long with the DF64V, but that's not going to be a surprise given the difference in burr size.

Looks pretty cool, I've been happy with my DF-64P but still room for improvement..

> @"LMSC"#p40168 It’s a only a question of time before we see another Niche Killer review popping up from the influencer. :-) I'm pretty certain that will be happening in due course….

Yes, i'm mostly curious to get a feed back from Tom, about the claimed similarity of the stock burrs with the SSP HU.

Here is the response from DF64coffee in response to my email asking about the brand/make of burrs that come standard with the new DF64V. _Hello Tom, Sure! To clarify, The burrs are now from our Professional Burr Chinese Manufacturer, they are sharper. The new burr is 100% Stainless steel with DLC coating. Sharper, less prone to rust and more durable. All our resellers and distributors did their tests in the initial stage and they found the coffee qualiy and grind quality to be superior to the italmill burrs before we launched the new burrs. Italmill was alloy steel, prone to rust, not as sharp and easier to become blunt. Previously we used to get from them.__

@"tompoland"#p40268 I started my working life in 1976 working for Scientific Mechanics, they made parts for the defence industry and lasers. They were a super high precision machining company. I first hear about Amorphous carbon coatings then (First invented in 1953), the term DLC (which is misleading) was coined by some researchers in 1971, so this stuff has been around a long time (over 70 years). You may want to give this a read it's a little dry, but interesting if you want to learn more about DLC coatings. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285897475_An_overview_of_DLC_coatings_on_cutting_tools_performance Care needs to be taken as there are many types, thicknesses and application quality of Amporphous carbon coatings, the advantage is it can make a relatively soft stainless base harder…but like an M&M except the outer shell is literally Microns thick. if that doesn't adhere properly…well remember that song by Paul Simon, "Call me Al", they are soft in the middle. I have seen Chinesium stuff coming off of burrs in the past and the Chinese do not have a reputation for good burr manufacture, quite the reverse. I suspect Italmill may not be supplying them for direct sale grinders from China. If you think hard about it, it's pretty obvious why they might do this (and have done it before with the Chinese manufacturers of this stable of grinders. Italmill supply a lot of Italian companies, big ones and encouraging competition by supplying the Chinese, might well screw them at home, ultimately their burr market would disappear and they would be out of business. As ultimately the Chinese would copy the burr geometries and manufacture their own…as they are now doing (manufacturing, I don't know about copying). **Plus there are many types of "DLC" coating.** lastly the material burrs are made of is interesting, You see the stainless burrs being massively bigged up, but it's not an ideal material. **It is however, much easier to machine, then it can be nanoscale coated** to give it some wear resistance it wouldn't otherwise have. The quality of this coating is paramount. A **tool steel burr** is much, much more difficult to make and very hard all the way through. I used tool steel to machine silver steel and stainless steel! Mazzer of course use tool steel burrs, they are v ery hard, flat and extreemly well machined with good burr geometry and I like them a lot they have been making burrs a very long time. There was a short stint decades ago where they used Italmill, but were not happy with the quality and moved production in house. Lastly geometry is critically important as well as manufacturing quality.. Mazzer burrs have great geometry and are machined to extremely high tolerances (down to a few microns). You can even tell which burr cutting machine a burr was made on! I'll finish on this one, as I see a lot of the grinder manufacturers and influencers saying this. "Omni Burrs", good for espresso or filter..this doesn't exist. For flat burrs especially, an espresso burr is good for espresso, it's been made to do that job and requires a certain geometry and characteristics. You can make filter with it, but it's not great at that job. A filter burr is great for filter, but a properly designed filter burr will be incapable of making espresso…not even so called "allonge" shots should be possible.

So... All this concept of having the same grinder (and burr) for filter and espresso is essentially not a good idea then. E.g: the Niche, the Df64/Solo and other single dose grinders which can be easily adjusted back and forth. Unless someone comes up with a design where you could also easily swap the burrs without having to mount them every time and align them - as this would be incredibly impractical. For me... Don't really care. I only drink espresso. 🙂

Why do you think there is such an emphasis on burrs. Hu, unimodal, filter etc Each brew type needs a different burr type Most sd grinder do an ok job, but in a ideal world you would have a dedicated espresso grinder and one for filter, but that's twice the cost for what could be seen as very little gain Say you have a niche £500 are you then going to spend another £500 plus on say an ode with filter burrs etc ? Would you taste the £500 difference? That's why I like my flat over the niche,

@"Cuprajake"#p40354 - if some grinders cost £2k if not more, I can’t see why someone wouldn’t spend £500 on a filter grinder and another £500 on a Niche. There you go… £1k saved. 😉 But that’s not the point. The point is why then have grinders which are “all purpose”. I get for the odd person who makes a filter brew once in a while, but for those who drink often, then they might not be getting the best? As Dave said above, geometry of burrs are focused on a brew method. Having one burr which can do them all is possible, but you won’t get the best. As the saying goes… Jack of all trades, master of none. And as I said above… if someone could come up with a concept where the burrs could be easily interchangeable, without one having to unscrew the top, remove top plate, remove top burr, remove lower burr, align… something where you could easy drop in one or the other ina matter of minutes without having to dismantle much, then that would be an incredible selling point for an “all purpose” grinder.

DF64V

tompoland

Cuprajake but it’s not always an option

100%.

Agree that one person’s “worth it” is another person’s “not worth it”.

For me, as a primarily espresso guy, there is a LOT thats worth it for espresso, that’s definitely NOT worth it for filter.

Cuprajake

Yeah then you get hardened espresso guys selling up and going just filter.

Suppose the hobby is ever evolving

tompoland

I’m trying to like filter, I really am. Probably just cxxx at it I guess. Going to keep giving it a nudge though.

DavecUK

tompoland Any idea how I could test the coating and how I could confirm the quality of the core steel used in the burrs, once I have them here?

I think it’s not really possible to know until you use the grinder for many years and seen how things perform.

One of the things that’s really limiting burr production at the moment is a lack of good quality steel on the market, lots of poor quality steel is available from China. This goes for stainless steel as well. It’s a big problem in the industry, it’s one ACS have when building machines, getting the right quality steel.

Ukraine war is the cause apparently.

whinmoor85

This new DF64V looks a lot like the Lagom P64.

DavecUK

whinmoor85 A lot of these grinders are all made in the same factory…

Dusk

I thought stainless is a relatively soft steel hence not being used in a lot of applications where rust prevention would be useful.

I also don’t really get burrs being coated, surely the seasoning process is the burrs wearing in a little which must also wear out any coating applied. I understand how hardening would work as it affects the whole burr rather than just the surface.

giampiero

If we turn around the words and definitions, it’s a loop, “stainless” does mean nothing, moreover should not be used as definition to identify the hardness of the material, as noted by “Dusk”, even if there are many “stainless” that are rust free.

Something like M340 or 16NiCr4 was used by some burrs manufacturers, but it’s an old info i got years ago, nowadays i have no clue about the steel type used for.

I remain in waiting of a report from Tom about the DLC burrs, probably by glance i would say that are more similar to a Gorilla burr than a SSP HU.

tompoland

giampiero I’ve got two sets of Gorilla Gear burrs coming too.

One for the DF64 and the other for the DF83. I wasn’t going to get the GGs for the 83 but John Gordon sent me pics of both the 64mm and 83mm this morning and the cut if quite different so that justified the buying the 83mm for testing in addition to the 64mm.

And Mazzers for both DF models too, plus various SSPs for the DF64 (all of them I think).

Why not? In for a penny etc.

(that’s the trouble when you buy something thinking you are at the bottom of the rabbit hole but in fact it was just yet another bump on a lip sticking out on the way down to …. does it even have a bottom?)

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK before with the Chinese manufacturers of this stable of grinders. Italmill supply a lot of Italian companies, big ones and encouraging competition by supplying the Chinese, might well screw them at home, ultimately their burr market would disappear and they would be out of business.

I just realised now… but doesn’t the df64, in its box standard form (Turin, Solo, df64, giota) come with Italmill burrs as standard? Unless those are fitted by the distributor depending where in the world the grinder is sold. Who knows…

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam Who knows…

Indeed…at least you know one thing with the Duo..Mazzer Burrs (151B and 151F)

tompoland

MediumRoastSteam the df64, in its box standard form (Turin, Solo, df64, giota) come with Italmill burrs as standard?

Yes. However the DF64V will ship with turin/solo/giota DLC burrs. These are now standard in the AU/NZ v2 of the DF83.

MediumRoastSteam

tompoland - yep. Potentially to Dave’s point above.

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