Hi all, new member here so thanks in advance for welcoming me and for all your advice! I’ve been a longtime pour over brewer with all the usual v60/ Aeropress/ Kalita Wave brewers and now decided it is time to get into the rabbit hole of home espresso making. I’ll mainly be the only one using it on a daily basis (OH isn’t really into coffee) and likely will be doing 3-4 shots a day, maybe with 1 or 2 being a milk drink. We don’t often have people round for coffee, in the last 6 months I bet I’ve made 2 cups of coffee at once less than a handful of times. I’ve spent a while researching forums, reviews and YT video’s and although it sometimes feels like the more you read the harder the decision gets, I keep coming round to getting a Gaggia Classic Pro. I have about £200 of vouchers with work that I can use at “commercial” shops so I could get it from somewhere like Selfridges for about £250 - which feels like a bit of a no-brainier. My only pause is whether I will end up outgrowing the machine in a year or so and wishing that I had got something that can grow with me longer. Although my espresso making skill and if I’m honest, likely my pallet and ability to detect differences in the coffee might mean that I never progress beyond ‘basic’ espresso I guess! I know you can heavily mod the gcp, I’m not sure how I feel about doing some of them myself beyond the OPV. If i’m going to want to be able to regulate temperature, control pre-infusion etc in future, am I better off getting a machine from the start that can do that? So I’ve also been looking at things like the Lelit Victoria or MaraX or the Sage Dual Boiler. All are a bit of an uncomfortable stretch beyond the budget (would like to spend £800 tops) although if I can get the SDB using my vouchers then it brings it down close to that figure. The other option is second hand which I’m not against, if I am confident in the seller, but also that the machine can be reasonably serviced/ repaired when out of warranty. I’ve seen some SDB’s for around £500 which seems a good price if they are well maintained/ good condition. Final thing to add is that I have a Comandante grinder already so I’m pretty set with that and don’t need/ want to save any of my budget for a new grinder. Apologies for the long post but hopefully I’ve given enough context of my requirements/ thought process - apologies if it just turns out to be a random ramble!

@"Mark-drinks-coffee"#p2208 Welcome to the forum. With your doubt of outgrowing the Gaggia, considering the after warranty serviceability of Sage, the used DB is a good option. The Liz would serve you very well, imo. A new Liz would require you to stretch £250 and the Minima £400.

@"Mark-drinks-coffee"#p2208 - welcome. I drink half of what you do - 1 milk drink in the morning, and a straight shot of espresso in the afternoon. Without a shadow of a doubt, personally, having owned a Classic before, I would steer clear of single boiler dual use machines, e.g.: Classic, Victoria. I know you have vouchers and a rather small budget, but I fear that you’d get tired and will outgrow that category of machine very quickly. If I were you, I’d focus on the MaraX at least. Also, grinding for espresso with a manual grinder is a rather tiresome process - I’ve been there before, for months while waiting for the Niche, and I would not consciously go back to it. And, don’t forget… water. Limescale will kill your machine in no time.

Id avoid the gaggia When i started with espresso i read and read, bought into the hype the gaggia is the ideal first machine Won one on ebay, bought all the assesories, got the nice hand grinder Watched all the YouTube vide And then burnt through a a kilo of coffee with every one going down the sink, i wouldn't wish a gc on my worst enemy. There hard to use, finiky temp un stable If you can spring to the sage dual boiler do it and be done with it, After the gaggia i bought a sage duo temp pro, and the first drink i made was drinkable. After that i went to a sb hx machine with group head thermometer, so i could monitor brew temps. Im now on a bianca dual boiler and its so easy to use. Ive wasted hundreds upgrading

Id use the vouchers for something else you need and free the cash for elsewhere The only unknow with the sage is how long it will last. Theres no doubting it can do what you want

@"LMSC"#p2219 Thanks for the reply. sounds like I need to have a good look at the SBD then. I’m also not really familiar with the Lelit range, is there any idiots guide on what I get if I go up between the Victoria to the MaraX to the Elizabeth? (MaraX seems to be cheaper on Bella Barista)

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p2221 Great - thanks for the advice, looks like I need to deep dive on some other options then, as well as preparing myself to blow the budget! I do get what you say about manual grinding, I personally enjoy it as part of my pour over prep although I get espresso grinding will be different. At this stage I would rather ‘make do’ with manual grinding and put the extra into a machine than have to keep some budget for another grinder and end up with a cheaper machine. If that makes sense? I might regret it after a few months but then the final outlay will be the same either way. With regards to water, I’m in the NW so it’s soft water and shouldn’t have an issue? Unless I’m missing something?

@"Cuprajake"#p2227 Yeah this is my worry - thanks for voicing it out loud! I’d rather pay £800-£1k now than £400 now and then £800-£1k next year.

@"Cuprajake"#p2228 Do you mean how long a second hand Sage would last? I assume if I get a new one then I’d hopefully be relatively set?

@"Mark-drinks-coffee"#p2239 - water wise… you should be OK. Maybe. Fact is, eventually it will scale and you’ll have to deal with it. As for me, I prevent that, so I hope never have to deal with it, specially as those machines are full of pipes and jets - which is not easy to get to. On this forum, there’s a link to Dave’s review. Check out the MaraX and the Elizabeth, it will give you a good idea of what they are like.

No, i ment new theres not as many people who service the sage machines.

So, I think I’ve made my decision…maybe?

MediumRoastSteam

pete10uk I consistently make good coffee (way above Starbucks)

I’m surprised you rate Starbucks. I’d rather drink a cup of Nescafé at home rather than their stuff. It’s awful.

LMSC Another alternative is get the Liz and pay over 4 months - paypal.

Personally, I’d steer clear from buying anything superfluous on credit. Given it’s not a necessity, I’d rather save up the money for 4 months (or whatever) and then buy the coffee equipment you want. You never know, you might have changed your mind by then. It’s too easy to get carried away with credit.

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam The 0% - one may not mind. Saving for 4 months vs taking advantage of it is a personal preference.

Credit purchase, which carries interest rate is dangerous. In principle, we do not fall for this - except mortgage. We do not even lease a car as it carries interest rates. Some like it, some loathe it and a lot of unfortunate ones pile on credit to get stuck in the vicious circle.

In summary, I hear you!

pete10uk

MediumRoastSteam I’m surprised you rate Starbucks. I’d rather drink a cup of Nescafé at home rather than their stuff. It’s awful.

That was my point, long ago I used to think of them as the place to go for coffee, now I know a little of what makes a nice coffee even on a bad day my coffee is way above theirs. It’s grim but sometimes when out on the road I need to use them.

Doram

Mark-drinks-coffee Cuprajake Higher up you go the easier it actually gets.

DavecUK I also agree with this

pete10uk I also agree with this! Especially now I know it’s not a fad for me it’s a part of everyday life.

Hmm ok… I get this point of view and I don’t want to “give up” on a £400 machine because I can’t get it to work (with my limited skill) whereas I might be able to get decent espresso with an £800 machine…

so, while I keep an eye on the various classified ads plus eBay/ FB Marketplace for a second hand option to come up… is there anything else in the £800 range that is worth looking at? I feel the £1k for a Liz/ MaraX might be just too much of a stretch for me at the moment. I get I need to spend that to get a dual boiler but what if I ‘accept’ the limitation of a single boiler and go for something like the Victoria? Or is it a case of Gaggia/ Victoria/ Silvia are all the same really and the actual decision is single v dual?

Let me offer a slightly different point of view. Coffee is a hobby, and doing it well requires a combination of quite a lot of knowledge, skill and experience on the one hand, with tools on the other hand. The advice you are getting here is from people who already have the knowledge and skill. Most of them (us), I assume started with modest, cheapish equipment, not end-game dual boiler machines. While I agree (of course) that better equipment makes things easier, there is also something to be said for starting the journey at the beginning and matching the equipment level to the skill level. Yes, if you are going to keep the hobby and upgrade over and over you might save money overall by buying an expensive machine right from the start. But maybe you won’t? And maybe you prefer to spend small now and get your foot in the door? Maybe you are better off learning how to look after a machine and make your mistakes on cheaper equipment before you cause damage to expensive gear? Maybe you need some time to learn the basics on cheap equipment so you can be better informed when you buy more advanced stuff?

Let’s think about a different field. Say you decide you want to learn to play the guitar. Maybe you have already taken two lessons, and now you go on a musicians forum and ask for advice for buying your first guitar. They might advise that you should get a really good guitar to save you from upgrading later. They might say it’s easier to learn on the best guitar, and they will probably be right. But do you really need the best at that stage?

You obviously don’t want to get a toy (guitar or coffee machine), with which you can’t learn because it’s not capable. But I am sure you can learn a lot with something like a Gaggia. If money was not an issue and you can start with a Bianca or Vesuvius - good for you. But is that the only good option to dip your toe in the water? I am less sure of that.

DavecUK

Doram Let’s think about a different field. Say you decide you want to learn to play the guitar. Maybe you have already taken two lessons, and now you go on a musicians forum and ask for advice for buying your first guitar. They might advise that you should get a really good guitar to save you from upgrading later. They might say it’s easier to learn on the best guitar, and they will probably be right. But do you really need the best at that stage?

When my son started guitar, I purchased one for £50 with an amplifier (brand new)….I had to do quite a lot of adjustments to make it play properly…he learnt with it for years, but of course it quickly wore out and he finally needed a better guitar. I bought him a nice Stratocaster quite a few years ago now for 2K which he still uses today…passed his grade 8 last week….which he should have done 3 years ago.

The cheap guitar was in case he gave up early….I suppose in the same way a cheap first machine can show you if you’re interested in the hobby…but not too cheap. If I had not made that first guitar right by setting it up as soon as it came out of the box, it would have been terrible.. Much like a Gaggia Classic.

Of course, if you know it’s not just a fad, perhaps consider spending a little more

Cuprajake

The gaggia has a hype around it imo. Its not worth the money. Its got a cult following, its like a mk1 ford escort, nostalgia makes you admire and want one, then you drive it and realise its a parcel of poop.

I bought into that hype, and like i say found it one of the hardest machines to use, coupled with being new to making it, my in experience left me propper pissed off and dismayed. After spending a few days and wasting alot of rave beans i felt id made a massive mistake.

People off the old forum then said should of stayed clear, i got the sage duo and again got told why? At the time there was a minima lightly used for a grand, should of got that, didnt listen and once that sold i took a punt on a used hx.

I dunno only you can spend the money , but the fact that you have to temp surf and use the machine blind in effect makes your job harder, and we know what just a couple degrees can make to extraction.

Cuprajake

Is it you who is northwest?

Theres a few norrhwest people on here, im sure a few of us would be happy to show you our machines and let you have a go

n8spresso

Cuprajake Theres a few norrhwest people on here, im sure a few of us would be happy to show you our machines and let you have a go

@Mark-drinks-coffee I noticed on the other forum that you live around the M60 so depending on whereabouts exactly I’m pretty close. If you are thinking of saving up for an Elizabeth you’re welcome to come and see mine however I’m pretty busy until the schools go back so you’d have to wait until then.

Cuprajake

Im bacup way

n8spresso

Cuprajake Even closer to me 🙂. Not going to say any closer on a public forum though. Maybe in the future private messaging can be enabled on here.

HVL87

n8spresso it is enabled under conversations.

Mark-drinks-coffee

Well I didn’t think my rambling post would attract so many replies and useful advise so thank you everyone for your advice, it really is appreciated and don’t want anyone to think I take it for granted! Especially since I get the feeling you guys have answered this type of question a million times, maybe I’m lucky and just hit a new forum at the right time!

So my current thought process is going something a little like this…I want a machine on which I can learn the basics of espresso, i.e how to control extraction to get a good cup by controlling grind, ratio and brew time without also needing to worry about temperature (other than it being stable/ consistent), pressure profiling, pre-infusion times etc. I don’t want there to be so many variables that it becomes too difficult to get a decent cup as I don’t know which of 10 things I need to change. I like things that take a certain amount of skill and I do enjoy things that involve a process, hence why I do pour over already and why I have a charcoal bbq and not a gas one! I’m invested enough to not want a plug and play or pod type device where you just push a button.

LMSC

Mark-drinks-coffee As we said before, the cards have been laid out, evaluate and decide what’s good for you. Please tell us what you ended up with.😊

Baldrick

Option 1: buy one of the gorgeous Lelit or similar machines and start learning how to get espresso out of them, safe in the knowledge that it’s not the machines fault, it’s yours 😉

Option 2: buy a used gaggia classic on eBay, stick a PID on it and start learning how to get espresso out of it.
Then:
A.) Have a great time making better coffee than you’ve had at home and in 98% of the cafes you’ve visited
B.) Deeply regret your choice and set up a “gaggia victims group” with @“Cuprajake”

Best of luck with your decision making process! Look forward to hearing what you go for 👍🏻

MediumRoastSteam

pete10uk when out on the road I need to use them.

Unacceptable! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣👍👍👍

CafeNoir

Mark-drinks-coffee ^IMHO the Commandante range are very high quality hand grinders and if you fit the Red Clix and don’t mind the work you will produce a very good result…. More funds toward the machine you actually want/need and no faffing about - disclosure, I own an Aergrind, Feld2, J-Max and a crappy Zassenhaus Quito… lol..plus Niche, Fiorenzato F6 and Macap M2D,,,..I’m a little bit into this thing but keeping it real (cough!)

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