I am sure that this argument has been discussed many times before, and will be discussed many times going into the future. What I am looking for, is folks who have either had or got both at the same time. I have. At the start of lock down 1, I had a Clima Pro and a Niche. The Pro was brand new and barely run in. My coffee habit always has been folks dropping in and out in a day, therefore the convenience of running a hopper fed grinder appealed. When you run this system, you have to accept tolerances of probably + or - 1 gram or more. Single dosing does away with this but then a whole new shot routine comes in. When was the last time you saw them single dose, invert into the pf. Level, stir, genuflect etc etc........and all for what? So, back on topic, I decided to put the 2 Grinders up against each other for a good few weeks. The result was that the CP won hands down in most aspects, but the Niche for me, edged it in the taste test. So, my question is, can any other dual on owner, give me their thoughts on the same bean in a flat v conical taste off please?

@"dfk41"#p3294 - I'm interested in knowing the results here. But, it's important to specify what beans one are using, as it might be that one type of grinder is more suitable (taste wise) for a given type of bean and roast profile. As an example, and no offence, as we all know taste is subjective and thankfully we all don't have the same tastes, for myself at least, there's no point the Niche being the "winner" if the beans were dark roasted. I'm not a fan of those, so any results of such comparison are meaningless, to me at least. @"dfk41"#p3294 - I assume your comparison was using dark roasted beans?

Same here. I hope experienced folks who have or have had the luxury of using both will chip in. I know views / recollection based on memory is not ideal. I am looking at light to medium roasts. Edit : I can see myself getting an electrical grinder. Flat or Conical is the biggest dilemma, although my heart says Flat! 😊

The one thing that does concern me is the cognoscenti who make pronunciations on a grinder or grinders, it's performance, the coffee….in a video lasting 20 minutes, and you never see unedited video of: * The grinders grinding shots * actual weight in/out * them opening the burr chamber and to show you what's inside * how you clean it and what really comes out * how you remove the burrs/carriers * the shots made by the grinder using a naked portafilter I personally think the way grinder reviews are done is appalling, and how anyone can use them to make a decision is beyond me. I guess it was similar for machine reviews, before I appeared on the scene and started removing the cases….which is now commonplace.

i cant really talk conical vs flat, but i can deffo say stock flat vs ssp burrs are different again, i find the stock burrs more acidic, were the ssp bring more sweetness and clarity.

@"Cuprajake"#p3311 @"Cuprajake"#p3311 what kind of ssp burrs and in what grinder? hu/multipurpose/unimodal

Yes, I use darker beans, so I suggest a description and photo. Not dark be definition but certainly medium and a bit more. I always take @"DavecUK"#1 as a measuring point and he drinks medium and a bit lighter yet uses the Niche and is a super taster!

hi, 83mm hu ssp in a mazzer major :)

@"Cuprajake"#p3311 What a combo? Sorry for being nosy! How much did that set you back, if I may ask, please ? You don’t have to answer, if you don’t want to. Thx Jake.

the grinder was a 2019 model off ebay im sure it was £240 del then the burrs were $350usd and i dont think i got import tax on them, but could be wrong so about £500 in total, i did have a wong doserless kit at one point, but went to a funne [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/fwI3vUi.jpeg ]

@"Cuprajake"#p3348 That’s a cracking deal for the 2019 model. Well done! 👏

Flat versus Conical

Cuprajake

When i bought my ssp burrs for the mazzer i was told they were espresso burrs. That was it. Tbh the guy wasnt very forth coming, and like wise the research i did wasnt very conclusive.

I think like most coffee gear you get to the point of deminishing returns,

Like is a kafatek conical worth all that extra over a niche? Is it 5 times better, does its make a drink 5 times better, prob not.

If the niche didn’t comand such a price used, id be tempted to get one to go along side the mazzer just to try.

Like i said before burrs can make a difference ive tasted that but the money spent chasing it doesmt seem worth while, i suppose it’s like paying £100 for 250g of beans.

As mark says theres so much overlap, and tbh its one reason ive never bought a tds metre as id get as obsessed over that as i did with neutrients in my marine aquarium

profesor_historia

Lake_M Niche is 63mm.

Petre

@DavecUK if you would have to choose max 2-3 grinders that one can own to cover most types of extractions would you have a recommendation? let’s say the goal is cup quality and mods/burr change can be done. Budget let’s say £1000 - £2000 total considering sh machines.

DavecUK

Petre I would have one conical and one largeish flat. Plus a good hand grinder. Then I would feel well covered for everything and all situations.

tompoland

It’s complicated. Right?

FWIW John Buckman of Decent fame, had the same combination of grinders as me, back in April or thereabouts last year. He told me that he used his 80mm flat burred EG-1 for light roasts and the 63mm conical burred Niche for medium-dark roasts.

I held on to the EG-1 but sold the Niche (it was great but needed more room on the coffee island).

However I’ve had a 83mm conical burred hand grinder (Malwani Livi) on back order since June last year so if and when it finally arrives I’ll do a few side by side comparisons. But based on past experience, I can probably predict that my conclusion will be something like “they are different and I like them both” :-)

My mad plan is to keep the EG-1 paired with the Decent DE1XL for light-medium beans and to pair the Livi hand grinder with the Streitman CT2 lever for medium-dark.

Having said all that, I suspect that the general consensus may be true, that the conicals are better for dark roasts (more fines, more body, denser flavor) but God help me if you even put me up for a blind taste test on this.

Petre

DavecUK

cheers. will a 64mm flat be considered large enough, or you would go higher?

DavecUK

Petre cheers. will a 64mm flat be considered large enough, or you would go higher?

If I was designing a flat, I would go bigger…cops then I could run it slower and get optimum burr packing at a much lower speed than 1350 rpm!

CafeNoir

DavecUK Lol, this is my aim, I love the Niche workflow but am prepared to tolerate a small amount of faff for the ability to mix n match. On a budget, alas.

Your comment on varying speed resonates, its what some high end flats are capable of and I’m hoping (futilely perhaps) that the Fiorenzato F6 with its inverter motor technology might be able to achieve something like this without harming the motor. Any informed advice would be appreciated.

pjw

I had several grinders during my coffee journey. I do not believe there is definitive answer, I believe it is important to see the grinder in the larger context: coffee, machine, workflow.

I had Compak K6 and K10 (both with dosers), at this time with NS Musica. Making a lot of coffee at single espresso session. Usually medium roasted beans. Here the winner was obvious, K10, just outperforming K6 in every aspect. The taste was superior in K10, very easy to feel the difference. I sold K6, I was happy with K10.

The biggest drawback of K10 was the workflow. I was single dosing, so it was taking forever. I decided to go for Mythos Clima Pro. The workflow on Mythos was great comparing to K10. At this time I had Londinium LR and was drinking all different kind of roasts from light to dark. Taste, to be honest, I was not able to tell a difference in blind tests. When I knew what I was brewing I had the standard bias, Mythos better for light roasted, K10 for dark roasted.

Then I stopped pulling multiple shots at single espresso sessions, my wife switched to pour over so I started looking for single dose grinder. I had Niche, but at that time I was mostly drinking light roasted coffees. I preferred Mythos. Then I tried DLR, Hedone Honne. Very good grinder, head to head with Mythos. Wasn’t sure which shall stay, put both on the market and for both got offers at the same time. So decided to switch to etz. Small conical, with outer burrs rotating. Was not able to compare it had to had with Mythos nor Hedone, but for me it is the same level. But so far the best workflow from all the grinders I had (even better the best best so far: Niche). Both in single dose and on-demand mode.

Then Titus Nautilus was released, and I always wanted to have home version of EK43 at home. So I went for SSP 98 mm HU.

There was a difference, very clear difference, the 98 mm SSP HU burrs really shines for medium-light roasted coffees. Sweeter and cleaner cup then in etz. For darker roasts, etz was much better and easier to use (the workflow in etz is better then in Nautilius). But I didn’t want to have two electric grinders. So I sold etz and bought 1zpresse JE-Plus just for the dark roasts. at least for me now I have best of both worlds.

My dream setup would be probably to replace the Je-Plus with Pharos 2.0, as I still in love within 68 mm burrs from Compak.

TLDR;

For classic espresso I believe decent hand grinder or Niche is optimal.

Looking for different experience, playing for filter coffees in espresso, those new flat burrs has a lot to offer.

Pompeyexile

This is the sort of thread that sorts the (if I can use a coffee related analogy) roasted bean boys/girls out from the rest of us green beans. You are not just into the taste, but also the science (the thread on water was enough to make my head spin) behind almost every aspect of producing a fine cup of java.

I love to read these threads and sit often opened mouthed at the expertise on show. But, given that, for the likes of me, who can’t afford (economically, space wise or even more importantly, keeping my relationship with my other half wise) to have more than one electric espresso machine and one electric grinder at a time. So, the flat or conical burr argument/discussion becomes less important, except for a green bean like me it brings up one important question… ’what is best for a varied number of drinks, be it espresso, pour over, drip etc, given that no one burr type will give you a WOW! experience on one particular brew and a naaaah! on other brews, but will perhaps give you a smooth, cool, Louis Balfour Jazz Club host type… Nice! or Grrrreat! at best?

More specifically, which would you lot choose if you could only ever have one?

dfk41

The best tasting coffee, to me anyway, was produced on a new Compak K10 doserless I owned. In the days when I was young and daft, I had the K8 flat at the same time. The K10 was superb but the downside was retention. Something like 20 to 25 gms. That means if you made an adjustment to grind, then it was not seen for 2 shots! Either that, or you wasted a lot of coffee, which I did. But with darker roasted beans, such as Java Jampit it was absolutely superb. But eventually the waste got to me, I sold each grinder but a few months later bought the E8 and E10. With new grind mechanisms the retention was a lot less but for some daft reason, the taste was inferior.
All of this comes down to personal preference, as has already been pointed out!

pjw

dfk41 Yes, there was something special about K10.

John_Yossarian

I am just leaving this here that confirms quite a few references.
https://simonelli-group.com/en/mythos-by-victoria-arduino-is-the-2022-2025-world-barista-championship-qualified-espresso-grinder/#msdynttrid=_pTmBlgj0q3FY-uIx2bsQ_UeWytiSnjDMG9jPv4FZ_E

Ixorya

Oh my, this topic is exactly the thing I am thinking about! I am now contemplating between the Niche Zero and the DF64 (64mm flat burrs, upgradable to SSP burrs). The price difference is quite substantial where I stay.

Niche Zero - SGD 907 / USD 668 / EUR 600

DF64 (Standard Steel Burrs) - SGD 560 / USD 413 / EUR 371

DF64 (SSP Burrs) - SGD 790 / USD 582 / EUR 523

*all prices rounded to the nearest dollar, price inclusive of importing tax for niche zero

From all the information I have gathered, I would think for overall ease of use, niche zero would stand out. Whereas DF64 would stand out in terms of the price and the use of the SSP burr set.

Now I think the question for myself would be which is more important? Ease of use? Or clarity of the cup? I am also contemplating getting the DF64 with standard burrs and upgrading later down the road.

*Disclaimer: I am a beginner and have only ever used hand grinders (currently 1zpresso JX) so all the above are assumptions from lots of research. I do know I prefer clarity in my coffee.

DavecUK

Ixorya I think with the price differences involved, your stated preferences and the fact you like how they both look. Apart from the workflow, the DF64 would seem to be your logical choice, then see if you want to upgrade to SSP burrs later as it uses the Italmill burr set, not my favourite, but it works OK.

drdre89

For aesthetics, the Niche does look great on a kitchen counter if thats your thing.

The DF64 does look like its Chinese made, but i’m sure it makes great tasty shots.

Ixorya

drdre89

AHAHA! Yes, aesthetics matters to me. But oddly I am ok with the looks of both grinders. Intend to get either one in white to match my futuristic white ACS Minima (with the wooden finish!). 😂😂

dutchy101

I have the Solo (DF64) and I love it. There is definitely a bit more of an effort required in terms of workflow to the Niche, but I was fully aware if this and prepared for that when I decided to buy it.

Maybe check out @DavecUK’ reviews of both grinders before making a decision. Dave also tried upgrading the burrs on the Solo to TiN burrs and didn’t think it was worth changing from the stock burrs.

Dave’s Solo review here:

https://news.bellabarista.co.uk/the-solo-the-new-single-dose-espresso-grinder/

Niche review here:

https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/pages/testimonials#reviewssection

dutchy101

This is how the Solo looks with the Minima, albeit in black. I actually prefered the look of the Solo to the Niche, which was an important factor in me choosing it

drdre89

dutchy101 looks awesome ! … the DF64 plastic dosing cup is not my fave, but atleast you can see how much coffee you have in the cup

LMSC

dutchy101 Very nice set up. All black Minima is pretty.

dutchy101

drdre89

Agreed on the dosing cup. Not sure if you can make it out in the pic, but I have a stainless 58mm dosing cup whuch I sit inside the plastic dosing cup and it sits really neatly rught under the chute.

I tend to push my knockbox up against the cup when grinding to make sure it doesn’t fall out when grinding (one of Hoffman’s main gripes with this grinder in his review). Not as neat as the Niche workflow, but it works for me.

I’ve seen people 3d printing alternative dosing cup holders to get the cup closer to the chute which I might look into ideally if my stainless cup fits in that I’d bin off the plastic one altogether

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