Espresso n00b, Lelit Elizabeth, taste difficulties ...

Brainbox

Good day!

I’m a first-time espresso machine user of a Lelit Elizabeth with mignon single dose grinder. The problem I have is that it is very difficult to get a nice tasting espresso. I use the default machine settings, 93 degrees and pressure 10 bar. 17 grams in the standard 18 grams basket. Ratio 1 : 2.5, about 40 grams brewed coffee. Second program, standard, 2 bar steam pre-infusion. With any coffee, if I go through the grind size spectrum that yields an extraction time between 15 and 30 seconds, including pre-infusion, there is always a more or less sour taste. Medium roast beans. Puck preparation using WDT tool and normal tamper, I think I can do this already with consistent results.

I probably need to change the default machine settings because it looks like I have under extraction over the entire grind size ‘spectrum’. Or use darker roast to make life easier, but not prepared to do that yet. The pressure of 10 bar is at the high end, so thinking to reduce that. But with under extraction, that seems counterproductive?

What am I missing?

Thanks and cheers, Bart.

DavecUK

Brainbox Hi Bart, The machine only really produces water at the right temperature and reasonable pressure. People say higher pressures can make coffee more bitter, not sour, but I don’t really subscribe to that 10 bar is fine.

I guess look at the coffee your using, and techniques, try different ratios, keep shot times above 25s, or it will get a bit sour.

The only other thing you can do with the machine, is raise the temperature by 1 degree, see if it improves things, if not raise it again. Also make sure any settings are correct for offset etc..

You have seen and read my on line sway guides for the Elizabeth…loads of information in there?

JHCCoffee

Brainbox The problem I have is that it is very difficult to get a nice tasting espresso

Might you describe what taste you are looking for?

If you are getting fully 40g out in 15 to 30 seconds (let’s assume a midpoint of 22 seconds including pre-infusion of 6 seconds? ) then your 40g flow is occurring within 16 seconds (22 - 6), which equates to a flow rate of 2.5 ml/sec, which is kind of fast. Can you not grind finer, which will increase your extraction and reduce your flow rate. I’d also think about pre-infusing longer and increasing your temperature.

It’s also possible that the sour that you taste is a fruit note that often occurs in medium or lighter beans.

delta76

Brainbox i suppose you meant extraction time between 25-30s.

General speaking to reducesourness there are 3 methods:

increase temp. Your medium roast coffee might be actually medium light and requires a tad higher temp
Grind finer
Increase ratio

I would suspect yours falls in (1) case, so try that first. Also, some beans are sourer than others (fruity, citrus etc. taste notes) what is your specific bean and how is it described by the roaster?

MediumRoastSteam

delta76 You didn’t mention your grinder. What do you have?

Brainbox I’m a first-time espresso machine user of a Lelit Elizabeth with mignon single dose grinder

Brainbox

Hi Dave, thanks!

Yes, I did read all your guides, excellent and very readable info! I did change the PID settings according to your recommendation.

Let me try temperature first and the ratio’s.

MediumRoastSteam

Exactly. With the Elizabeth, aim for 30s. My shots are usually 35 seconds.

If this is your first espresso machine, and you are not into espresso, it might be you don’t like espresso. One thing though: anything less than 25 seconds and you’ll be under-extracting, resulting in very sour tasting shots.

Brainbox

I did increase the temp up to 96 Celsius in steps and that creates a better taste.

Regarding extraction time, yes, I use the standard steam pre-infusion times, so my first assessment that 30 secs total is on the long side is probably wrong indeed. Reasoning was that without pre-infusion 25 secs would be sort of max.

I need even 40 secs to get a better taste. But I assumed that was way too long due to something more basic setting being off. And these 40 secs are with a finer grind to still get the 1:2.5 ratio.

I have a nespresso machine, so I know basically how espresso tastes like … Aming for a nice caramel / chocolate / sweet taste. What I get is not fruity, but maybe I need a coffee workshop to really be able to judge. It is the kind of sourness that remains at the back of the tongue for at least half an hour. But tbh, I do dislike this type of sourness in a way that now, even with a smaller hint of sourness, my taste buds start to protest. Maybe they got traumatized by my experiments … :-)

I suppose I’m on the right track. Longer infusion times up to 40 secs, including pre-infusion, are probably OK enough to not avoid. And 96 temp for now. This is a good basis to start tweaking the more advanced settings like pre-infusion times. I will also start using the flow rate as a metric, thanks.

Cheers, Bart.

HarveyMushman

Brainbox have a nespresso machine, so I know basically how espresso tastes like … Aming for a nice caramel / chocolate / sweet taste. What I get is not fruity, but maybe I need a coffee workshop to really be able to judge. It is the kind of sourness that remains at the back of the tongue for at least half an hour. But tbh, I do dislike this type of sourness in a way that now, even with a smaller hint of sourness, my taste buds start to protest. Maybe they got traumatized by my experiments … :-)

Whilst I’d be wary of comparing Nespresso to ‘proper’ espresso the notes you describe certainly sound like underextraction and also the kind of experience I’d associate with low temperature

Just a thought, are you giving the machine enough time to properly warm through? Every machine I’ve ever owned says ‘ready’ before the grouphead and resultant water temperature is adequate for proper espresso extraction. This obviously varies hugely by machine but other owners of your machine will know how long it will take to be ‘properly’ ready to brew.

delta76

Brainbox fix other variables and change one at a time in small adjustment.

Nespresso is not an espresso, strictly speaking. But in general if you want chocolaty, nutty taste then go with darker roasts. Modern espresso are leaning toward lighter roast which highlight unique bean flavors, and will be more fruity/sour than Italian style espresso. Try different beans and decide what you prefer

MediumRoastSteam

Brainbox - Hi Bart. I’ve owned an Elizabeth for the past 3.5 years. All I can think is that either you are doing something fundamentally wrong or your coffee is not for your taste.

So if you want advice, I’ll go back to basics with you.

did you input all the parameters as per Dave’s review? If so, your offset should be 10s. Could you confirm that?
turn all pre-infusion off for the moment.
turn the stand by functionality off.
let the machine warm up for 25 minutes before hand. (Not sure about 110V… maybe leave 30 min - I’m assuming you are in a 220-240V region).
buy coffee which is roasted medium or medium dark.
aim for a shot which runs for 30-35s in total, at a ratio of 2:1 or 2.5:1. First drips should start appearing at 8 seconds.

Which coffee are you using? Do you have a link to it?
How’s your prep? Do you WDT? Do you have a bottomless porta filter?

A video could speak a thousand words.

Good luck.

Tal

Maybe buy some more traditional beans that are more likely to give you the chocolate/caramel/sweetness you describe.

Slightly darker roast than you have, medium dark roast, they should be easier to dial in than the medium roast you currently have and should be more likely to give you the tasting notes you are looking for?

What coffee are you using?

Brainbox

I switch the machine on early in the morning and start using it after at least half an hour. I also leave the portafilter in so that everything should have the right temperature.

But this morning I noticed that the temperature has an overshoot to about 107 degrees. Temperature slowly increased, but all of a sudden it was 107. Checked, it was not the steam boiler temp. I will measure the real water temp with my oven thermometer to be sure there is not a faulty sensor. I assume the water temp exiting the machine can be lower than the set temperature.

Also, taste is probably subjective, I tend to like bitterness more (like in beer) and also perceive bitterness less as compared with others. Maybe my taste perception is shifted towards bitterness …

MediumRoastSteam

Brainbox - is the stand by function off? Did you input all the settings provided by Dave in his review? Do you know the machine has an “express warm up” cycle? Could that explain the jump in temp? Could you write all the parameters here so we know exactly what you have?

Brainbox

MediumRoastSteam

Went back to machine default by resetting just half an hour ago, but did double-check against Dave’s value’s when I changed them.

Stand-by is off.

Brainbox

I use this coffee now:

I did use Dave’s settings for the PID, but not the pre-infusion times because I first thought to use the standard pre-infusion for a basic dial-in.

Not using pre-infusion at all makes it worse …

MediumRoastSteam

Brainbox - that coffee shouldn’t be sour - bitter maybe, but not sour, even at lower temperatures.

I’d focus on preparation (you didn’t answer my question) and as per some pointers above. It’s hard to picture what you are experiencing re: jump in temp without more context or more detailed explanation.

At this point… I wish you good luck. I don’t think there’s more I can do here.

Brainbox

MediumRoastSteam

The amount of reactions is a bit overwhelming on a Sunday morning, sorry :)

With the current approach, I was able to get some consistent coffee’s now. Without changing anything, for 1:2.5 I get times between 35 and 40 secs. And somewhat bitter, sourness gone.

Puck preparation, I use WDT tool to evenly distribute and press one time, hard, at the end rotating the tamper a bit to get a flat surface. If at all possible, I think it could be too dense maybe, not too loose. Puck preparation is the only variability that causes the variation in pour time.

I think I made the following mistakes. Wrong idea about proper pour times and temp too low. Maybe the temp sensor is off a bit, but for blaming technology as major culprit it is still too soon. Measuring water temp with the oven thermometer is not accurate at all, useless.

Thanks! Really appreciated and was effective! :-)

Cheers, Bart.

Edit: I did read about the temperature overshoot on Redit also. Not too worried about that atm.

Tal

Are those beans supermarket bought? Do they have a roast date? I

I am guessing they only have a best before date and are stale, you’ve no chance of achieving anything resembling puck resistance….

Buy better coffee!! Freshly roasted from a decent roaster, in UK a good starting point is Rave, all very good, plenty of darker blends to get your eye in with. It’s what I did. I like Chatswood no6 and signature no1 most of theirs.

Brainbox

Tal

Thanks! I’m in the Netherlands and had a trial packet with different coffee’s, but only 250 grams for each coffee, so that was gone before I could even properly dail-in with my experience … :)

Expiry date is Oct 2025. I also found a local coffee roaster, will pay a visit next week.

HarveyMushman

Brainbox

Some great roasters in NL.

I’m guessing you know Coffee Company? Obviously a small chain but their beans are pretty good. Lot61 in Amsterdam are also nice. Used to be on Overtoom but on Kinkerstraat now I think.

Also Dak are popular but I’ve not tried anything from them.

delta76

That coffe should not be sour. Coffee sold in supermarket are usually at least Medium, usually medium dark or more. Easier to hide the bean defect and create a stronger taste that is easily mistook for “tastier”

You didn’t mention your grinder. What do you have?

Elizabeth should have pretty good temp stability and even a bit hotter than desired. Can you check the temp of water comes out of group head? Or even better, use the flash boiling method to see if the temp is not far off pid?