I live in an area whose water supply is around 200-300ppm TDS. I'm not letting that come anywhere near my E61 machine, so I use the "Zero Water" filters and then remineralize. This is convenient, but the filters don't last long, given the water they have to work with. How do you treat your water? Do you use RO? Is there a less wasteful/expensive method of water purification I don't know about? Thanks in advance for all your advice.

I’m around 130 TDS and I’m still on my first filter since January - yesterday it was still giving me zero

@"Uncletits"#p70651 Thanks for that. I get through one filter a month. Once I've remineralised, I'm at around 120ppm. If I had water as relatively pure as yours, I might not even filter. 😉

@"PianoMan"#p70653 - my water reads 180ppm - 200ppm TDS. However, the hardness in terms of calcium carbonate is 310ppm. I use ZeroWater. One filter lasts me around 6 months. On average, I use 1.5L water a week.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p70655 I'm starting to think I'm a heavy coffee drinker. 🤣 I get through around 10L a week. Perhaps it's because I have to flush the group head when I make a coffee. It's not the most water-efficient process. ☹️

Live in Kent crazy hard water - have a full house softener - which then goes into the zero. Usually get around 65-100 tpm - had the first set of filters in since april 24 - maint light just come on so it must have hit 2000 litres. Though tbh the readings seem fine still.

@"MattH"#p70659 A softener removes the calcium hardness, yes, not just a purifier? Forgive my ignorance as I'm fairly new to this. I share your frustration with water hardness. I honestly don't think I could run an e61 style machine straight from the mains.

I make rodi water they cost about 80-100 to buy and install.

@"Cuprajake"#p70661 Is that a standard RO system? Do you perhaps have a link?

I use this system. https://www.waterdropfilter.co.uk/collections/portable-reverse-osmosis/products/instant-hot-water-reverse-osmosis-system-wd-k19-h The price varies almost daily. I paid £279. It is quite quick, has worked faultlessly in the 2 months I have had it. They are a global company. I used to use the Osmio Zero system which is nearly £200 more. I do have to add bicarb back in to the water for use if my coffee machine but for me the pro's outweigh the con's I have just checked Amazon and it is currently £269 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterdrop-Instant-Dispensers-Countertop-WD-K19-H/dp/B0BRMWKJ19/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=38ZT436W2WYCE&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.xkFNOU04MGbmwbEkqArwvPxM0ZgPRDd_EjIvyeavtS1sPKbhK2JXcWMbgOaoykchr_gCJCnx6D0bTKKp5PSjvcbYC_wxG4LpwLN-_AbFUDvwRwVxoTO2OSnHVjClQTjiH8D3UjftYrn74Z7GAi9UJMBcgBOC5jTxcg96_rnwPBSv7w3D6u2q7slbPltsDzg7_rWnUlffy4D02ATnRktAb_cyxJu1ZBlo2kc0WrntmZ0H5tJ3fP4D45rcuLOL37nR9AIZJeCeBcWx3G9tShu06m4G4J1t5OBrSNZE3uxCZyU.oEoPg7c9nWYXIdrOuFUw9DbKJpnmI4Y28kAxH4p8FMU&dib_tag=se&keywords=waterdrop+k19&qid=1723984248&sprefix=waterdrop+k19%2Caps%2C112&sr=8-1-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.d7e5a2de-8759-4da3-993c-d11b6e3d217f&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

@"PianoMan"#p70660 Yes just the hardness (or at least reduces it) and then the Zero has to work less hard so it keeps the filters lasting longer.

From what source to people get the purified water (i.e. with near-zero TDS)?

PianoMan

Adrianmsmith Agreed, there’s more to water quality than just the TDS, but measuring TDS will tell you whether or not your machine will scale, which was my primary concern as HX machines are notoriously flaky if they scale. I do add a little Magnesium and Bicarb as a buffer and it all seems to work. 👍

MWJB

PianoMan Agreed, there’s more to water quality than just the TDS, but measuring TDS will tell you whether or not your machine will scale,

TDS does not provide any distinction between the components in the water, therefore cannot cannot provide information on scaling, or corrosion potential. You need to know the alkalinity (KH, temporary hardness). Ideally, this should be 40-60mg/L. Alkalinity/KH is not a proportion of the measurable TDS.

You can get drop kits on line and they will provide many uses.

PianoMan

MWJB I thought hardness (not alkalinity) formed part of the TDS. Limescale is made from calcium and surely calcium forms part of water’s TDS?

MediumRoastSteam

PianoMan - calcium is not the only dissolved solid in your water.

For instance… I have a salt water softener. Although the water has no calcium, and it’s soft when I measure it, the TDS is not changed compared to the hard water tap. That’s because one mineral (calcium) has been replaced with another (sodium).

In summary… just because you water has a high tds, it doesn’t mean it’s from calcium.

MWJB

PianoMan Alkalinity used to be called ‘temporary hardness’, it’s the constituent in the water that will precipitate out as scale, if there is not enough of it the water can be corrosive.

Limescale is made from calcium and magnesium (total hardness of the water).

The relationship between alkalinity & total hardness is very varied from one water source to another and there is little link to TDS, TDS also includes organic compounds & bacteria if present.

Alkalinity is the most useful parameter to know.

Cuprajake

want to know exactly whats in your water icp test, back in the day i used triton and marin labs

https://krakencorals.co.uk/reef-factory-smart-icp-oes-2-salt-water-ro.html

PianoMan

MWJB I get that, (well, most of it) but without the calcium (which is part of the TDS, and is, therefore, not present when TDS is zero) what forms the limescale?

MediumRoastSteam

PianoMan but without the calcium (which is part of the TDS, and is, therefore, not present when TDS is zero) what forms the limescale?

You cannot have limescale if there’s no calcium or magnesium. If your TDS is zero (no dissolvable solids in the water) then it is physically impossible.

PianoMan

MediumRoastSteam That’s what I thought!

MediumRoastSteam

PianoMan - I don’t understand… are you saying you are getting limescale with water with 0 TDS?

PianoMan

MediumRoastSteam MWJB seems to think otherwise, and I was concerned he may be right

MWJB

PianoMan I never said that. Water that is 0TDS drifts to acidic after being purified, this water has too little alkalinity and is now corrosive. You are trying to strike a balance between water that will not scale, but will also not damage your boiler/espresso machine.

For example, RO machines with brass taps often have plastic lined tubing to prevent the metal being extracted into the water.

So if your water is 0TDS you add some minerals/alkalinity back in, this buffers the acidity. When you have some TDS you measure the alkalinity to get a handle on whether it will scale, or corrode, or be in the sweet spot.

PianoMan

MWJB

I present the jury with exhibit A, your honour.

MWJB

PianoMan I say that TDS does not show whether your water is scaling, or corrosive - if it is not one, it will be the other, unless you treat it to sit in a desirable region. The thing to measure is alkalinity (total hardness is also useful as a secondary parameteter) as TDS cannot tell you what you need to know.

I have been saying this for several posts now, I don’t know why you are so resistant to this idea.

A contaminated RO machine can have no hardness, nor alkalinity and still read significant TDS from biological sources. There would be no way to distinguish how much calcium, or magnesium was in the water from a TDS reading.

This is my last post on the matter.

PianoMan

MWJB Righto. 👍

Adrianmsmith

This is going round in circles.

I stand by what i said earlier.

Tds as a single measure is of very little use.

As is neat RO water with zero or any tds.

No it wont cause issues with scale, it would slowly dissolve the machine instead!

DavecUK

Adrianmsmith No it wont cause issues with scale, it would slowly dissolve the machine instead!

Nah!

PianoMan

Adrianmsmith

I only laboured the point because…

1) I thought all my effort might be going to waste and…

2) I was so very, very bored at work. 🤔

Adrianmsmith

DavecUK

….. if remineralised as would normally be the case 😎

SurreyAlan

My simple method is to buy one bottle of water from Waitrose, divide it into another two old bottles then top them all up with water from the Zero jug, the tds says 35.

MWJB

SurreyAlan Waitrose Lockhills is already at the lower end of recommended alkalinity. I wouldn’t dilute it further unless for brewed coffee, water heated in a kettle.

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