Is the Niche Zero top of the pile?

dfk41

I make no bones about the fact that I am a big Zero supporter. I bought two when the first Crowdfunding campaign started and have owned them continuously since. They do what it says on the tin ie next to no retention and just work. In addition, they are now a mature product with very few reported problems since launch. This is despite the haters (of which there are many) trying their hardest to knock.

I remember one much mooted alternate by a group was to buy up Azkoyen Capriccio’s which in car terms are the equivalent to a Lada Riva, pre-production model and modify them and then take over the world. Well, we are still waiting for that one…..LOVL.

The Zero uses the well respected burrs from the Mazzer Kony. So, my question is if a Zero owner were wanting to try another CONICAL grinder, what would they go to? At the price point it is unique. Let us set a budget of say £1100 which is approximately twice the cost of the Zero.

This is the question that I have had to ask myself over the past couple of years. The decision to go down the Kafatek route evolved over 2 years or so, and was partly arrived at by the apparent lack of opposition. remember, the suggestions have to at least be as good as. Many of the alternates have known issues and therefore I discounted them.

I am just interested in folks thoughts. I have been trying to find watchable content on the MC6. All of the influencers seem to trot out exactly the same line (as an attack weapon) and that is the MC6 is about 5 times the price of a Niche Zero but is it 5 times better? The simple answer of course is no so it really is a stupid point. Influencers on the whole talk a pile of dog’s doo doo’s in their quest to create content. One such person is yet another shaven headed person with less than 8000 subscribers who creates content of very low quality in my opinion, and if you then compare what he has produced with another pony tailed influencer with 244,000 subscribers they both have very similar content and parrot the same nonsense. It really is difficult trying to use other peoples content opinions with enough salt to flavour your potatoes…….which is why I watch very little of this sort of thing

BrendaninBrooklyn

One well-engineered alternate is the WUG2 v2 which accepts both 83mm and 71mm Mazzer conical burrs. I do not know how much difference there would be in the cup from the NZ burr set. Perhaps Dave will comment on this. Otherwise, I believe Kafatek is the only other high quality conical alternative.

It says much for Niche that the upgrade options are multiples of its’ price ;-)

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn I have never seen the WUG, so I will now go and have a look…many thanks

£1512 plus the cost of the burrs, then the other usuals! I have not studied this as you need a degree to follow all the options but it seems £412 for a set of burrs and a carrier. That puts it at £1924 plus carriage, vat and import…..starting to get expensive!

The 83mm Mazzer espresso option reduces the £412 down to £201 for flat and £302 for conical

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

I can only see USA pricing. However, you do get a 25% discount on up to four burr sets when ordered with the machine, so the Mazzer 83 conical set is $359 * .75 =$269.25 The grinder is$ 1,799, So just over $2,000 in USA.

I did interact with a few owners over the last year; all very positively. There is a Discord channel somewhere under Titan Grinders, which I’ve not had an opportunity to join just yet, but plan to before month’s end. When I find the link I’ll pass it on.

What got our attention was the ease of changing burrs, second only to Duo in this regard. The ability to use a range of conical and flat burrs, which implies this is really an “end-game” product. If you look at some of the videos, you can see how it is as close to zero retention as possible. Owners were enthusiastic about build quality, hyper-alignment – including of the burr / carrier sets which are done individually. And for my wife and I space-saving.

We are likely to be moving to the EU in the next couple of years and will not purchase until that timeline is fixed, but then, yes. We believe this will probably be a real step up from our Niche Zero and Niche Duo, in a more compact package, and at a price that is significantly less than comparable alternatives.

Our one concern is support if the owner retires, however that is the case with Kafatek also.

Good luck with your quest.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

I’ll add that were it not for moving we would not replace our Niche Zero and Niche Duo. However, as 220V versions will run us $1,570 the move to a WUG2 with the burrs of our choice is not much of a leap, but is the farthest we would go. If we stayed here, both Niches would remain too. They are just really difficult to equal, much less excel.

Cuprajake

i think commercially it is, its probably out sold most home grinders.

if its top of the pile dunno, depends who you ask, all i know is its a no fuss, does what it says reliable grinder,

LMSC

One needs Zero II to better the Zero, if at all, at a comparable price point. 😊

dfk41

LMSC How would you improve it?

LMSC

dfk41 I am neither an engineer nor have an understanding of design or the engineering art of possible.

Improvement depends on what one finds as lacking, ignoring those who will always criticise or looking out unsuccessfully to knock Zero out.

I have never used a zero. So, do not have any real user experience.

May be, another burrs set - 71 mm or 83 mm, or a perhaps the Zero Duo (sounds crazy / stupid thought to me) like flat-conical combo (please don’t ask me how), swappable conical / flat burrs…. 😀 The price will have to move North.

FadedFrontiers

I’ve seen second hand Weber Keys around your budget, haven’t tried them but @Adrianmsmith enjoys his. Weber do have a poor reputation for customer service though.

No grinder will be twice as good as the Niche for twice the price, but then again equipment pricing doesn’t work like this at any price range. Many would see the Niche as expensive and not twice as good as a grinder half its price like the Baratza Esp, Opus, or DFs. Surprised I’ve not seen mention of diminishing returns yet!

Adrianmsmith

FadedFrontiers I’ve seen second hand Weber Keys around your budget, haven’t tried them but @Adrianmsmith enjoys his. Weber do have a poor reputation for customer service though

The key to the key if you pardon the pun is rdt.

I’m talking about one very fine mist spray only. But makes the difference between zero and a lot of static?

I did complain a little to start with but since I’d now use rdt and have the bean feeder with two 1 cm gaps I have no problems not stall and produces great repeatable coffee.

My opinion is slightly different @dfk41 with regard to hand grinding as I do actually prefer the Craig Lynn hg1 prime, it’s a pleasure to use but I do have granite work tops and one unadvertised feature of the prime is that it basically just sticks to the granite and stays put. You can use one hand to grind if you want to.

I have not tried for 6 months or so to sell the key and the prime is in the loft . When i have the time, I may re-advertise the key, sell it and start using the prime again.

If anyone is local to ilkeston, you’re all welcome to come and compare!!

dfk41

I think the UK price point on the Zero is spot on. I would not put Baratza and Niche in the same sentence! I know they are extremely popular over the pond but that is mainly due to the endless commercial whitewashing they receive on Home Barista regardless of just how good or bad it actually is. I had a Sette for a short period of time. it was innovative but honestly, you needed ear plugs to turn it on! Someone mentioned the Weber Key…..must be a reason why it has not really taken off big time….everyone who owns a piece of kit thinks it is the best thing, hence them buying it then wanting to tell everyone else how good it is to justify things……I thought about a Key as the burr set is without doubt good but too many other documented issues. Thing about the Zero (and to some extent the Duo) is that it is just so easy to live with and is the Ronseal of grinders

JimmyP

HG1/HG1 Prime would probably be top of my list, but I think Kinu M47 and 1zpresso ZP6 (filter) are also well worth a look.

On the secondhand market I think Weber Key and Mazzer Robur would be interesting to try.

Kinu M68 looks interesting 🤔

dfk41

JimmyP On the secondhand market I think Weber Key and Mazzer Robur would be interesting to try.

The Robur has the most awful retention.

Cuprajake

For 1100 save your money

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

The WUG2 lets you use ither Robur burr set, 83mm or 71mm, with essentially zero retention ;-)

JimmyP

dfk41 I’m glad that’s the best of your criticism 🙂👍

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn And that is in its favour! I cannot say the grinder is good, bad or indifferent as I know absolutely nothing about them. I hope someone with a bit of nous reviews one in a non typical influencer sort of way…..it might be you!

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

I am a natural skeptic and find coffee almost as superstition-ridden as audio, so I approach slowly. The NZ and ND are already excellent so what would my wife and I expect from a WUG2?

Well, the build quality is better; whether that makes any difference in the cup or in practical longevity I can’t say. However I can say it will not be worse and is likely better.

We love our Niche Mazzer burrs for espresso and our Kinu M47 also. Will Mazzer Robur 83mm burrs be better for us? We cannot be certain of course but are guessing yes. They definitely will not be worse.

For high-clarity filter we have a Pietro that meets our requirements. so we would not opt for an Ultra burr or similar.

For most filter and sometimes espresso we really enjoy SSP LS Cast v2 in 83mm on Duo and 64mm on Fellow Ode. Will the 80mm SSP LS Cv2 be better for us? Again we have to guess based on the data we have, however we can be certain it will not be worse.

So we are willing to gamble that indeed the results will be better for us, and of course we will be able to use both burr sets in a single grinder. There is minimal risk since we know it will not be worse. The worst case is no difference in the cup and some funds wasted. The difference between purchasing the WUG2 and 220v versions of both our Niche grinders is small enough for us to take the chance.

This is how we arrived at our decision because while conversing with WUG2 owners could definitely answer some questions (build quality, support, etc) no such conversation can tell us that we will definitely taste better cups.

I don’t know if this is helpful, but I hope so. Dave could likely offer an informed opinion on 83mm Robur burrs vs Kony 63mm burrs. If you are not in a hurry I’ll have time in a few weeks to chase down the WUG2 Discord and will send you the link.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

PS One concern I had was does it grind properly? So many chic a la mode grinders do not – they stall, they require hot-feeding, they work best with single-bean feeding, and other such flummery. I would not purchase an auto that required me to get out and push when I reached a hill.

The WUG2, just like the Niche, will happily grind green beans without stalling. So again, not necessarily better but also definitely no worse.

dfk41

This is the link to WUG. My thread so I do not mind it being diluted!

https://wug2.com/

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn I totally understand your rationale and I think, faced with the same dilemma I would lean the same way. The bigger Mazzer burrs in theory ought to be better. The HG One shares them as well and I did own one of those when they first came out but hated hand grinding so much I never really got the chance to use it properly. I have often thought about buying a Robur but knowing what I do about them I do not think it could possibly make me happy……in a commercial environment it would reign I am sure.

SO, take all the time you need and I look forwards to hearing the thoughts of you and your good lady!

FadedFrontiers

BrendaninBrooklyn the potential to change out different burrsets of varying sizes and types with the Wug is really fantastic, making it so versatile. Also sounds like a sensible decision given your move - let us know how you get on with it!