Is that flash boiling at 97 degrees normal?

Patrick

Ok, I went along to ecm profitec stand at the show spoke to one of their head technical people, because I was concerned that the profitec drive, which i’m not as familiar with, might be using a hardcoded offset. Which it does, what you can change is a modifier, as it works like the ecm barrista max. So there’is a hard coded offset of I don’t know, twelve or something like that.And you can change it by up to plus or minus ten each way. So the setting of two is the correct setting for your machine.

This means the problems probably related to either scale on the temperature sensor or a faulty temperature.Sensor.

MuddyOne

Patrick

Ok thanks, I have messaged the seller just now. I had a feeling that something is off : assembly coffee recipe on one of their coffees advised 93 degrees, I was getting much better results at 90, now I start understanding why.

I’ll come back what they message me , they really didn’t check the machine properly last time, it’s the machina coffee site

MuddyOne

crimson89 it doesn’t matter which beans I’m using, it produces higher temperature than it should and that is set on PID .

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne I checked temperature, it’s 97c

Not sure if you fixed your issue but as has been said its not possible to measure it accurately and be flash boiling at that temperature. Needs to be above 100 surely except on @Gagaryn ’s ship maybe, not at normal temp and pressure which i assume most normal houses will be.

Sorry, catching up on unread posts

MuddyOne

Guys i Hope someone can cast some light in here on this matter.

So I returned my previous drive because of flash boiling at 96 c

My new drive came in matte black from Bella Barista , released new version few months ago. Supposedly with updated firmware, fixed release issues and components.

But it does flash boiling again at 94c and + 2 off set

What’s more other users experience exactly the same thing , I just talk to some user of his drive in black doing the same, saw another comment stating the same.

Big company as profitec is releasing its high end flagship machines with consistent performance issues? I’m struggling to believe this…

This machine as Dave pointed out here has hard coded off set, I have no idea what that is vs regular off set .

If hard coded off set is not to be adjusted or changed and 2/-2 is correct for this machine then why is that setting available for user to be changed?

How to approach that to avoid flash boiling?

Adrianmsmith

Do you have a wire k type thermocouple you can use to measure the actual temp inside the portafilter basket. Tape up the bottom of basket so theres not much flow.

Obviously if its flash boiling you are going to see 99.9 degrees with that setup.

I can only suggest lowering the set point and assuming it is at least consistent then see what temp you need displayed to hit the 94 or whatever you require .

If it is not even consistent id want my money back.

Id argue consistency is more important than (although you should have both) absolute values being correct.

Hard to imagine why they have programmed a secret offset value.

Maybe the whole situation is enough to ask for a refund.

Where are you located

MuddyOne

Adrianmsmith

England

Well changing that off set ( after doing some research it’s a modifier ) actually is doing something. The machine allows 10 to -10 off set

But it I change off set to -6 I may no longer have flash boiling at 94c but i will have no assurance what temperature is actually going through the group head .

As long as temperature is stable I believe it’s the setting matter and not fault.

I need proper device or method to adjust correct temp/ off set

dfk41

MuddyOne This is a funny one……I am a Luddite but to me, something cannot boil unless it reaches boiling point? This would then point to the offset between expected temp and actual temp. I am not familiar with the Drive……is this the latest itinerant of the 700 being a dual boiler.

Can we just make sure I understand your term ‘flash boiling’? In the old days of HX machines ruling, you had one boiler that produced hot water for the shot. If you left the HX for some time to idle then the water in the HX would heat up and be too hot to pull a shot with so you had to release some water that would have mucho steam in it and we referred to it as flash boiling.

I am sorry if I seem to be stating the obvious but I am just trying to ensure I fully understand the problem before trying to help solve it!

MuddyOne

dfk41

I believe I have much less knowledge about espresso machines than you but I’ve been doing a lot of research recently and found that it’s a bit different type of flash boiling, not the same cause at least. Hx machines were flash boiling when left idle , this is not the case with dual boilers .

Drive is just a successor to 700 with more electronics i believe.

The thing is happening basically as in video above in post thread but I can make another one tomorrow morning. It’s basically hissing sound, excessive amounts of steam very likely water is too hot than what it should be . If I lower temperature to 92/90c there is no excessive steam or that odd sound anymore.

MuddyOne

Just my intuition , but is there anything wrong with setting temperature to 100(or 99c) and adjust off set one point under so it just stop flash boiling ? That way it should be accurate ?

Adrianmsmith

MuddyOne Just my intuition , but is there anything wrong with setting temperature to 100(or 99c) and adjust off set one point under so it just stop flash boiling ? That way it should be accurate

Yes BUT you need to actually measure the temperature. You cant just look at it and say “yay, 99 degrees ”. Measure it

In your situation the flash boiling label is wrong. its a dual boiler. Your either boiling or your not.

Cuprajake

Why did you get another one

As i said before turn the temp down and use it as a guide or swap machines

MuddyOne

Cuprajake

Because overall it seems like a great capable machine, even if I had a faulty unit ( release pre order unit ) two years after now ( new casing matte black ) all should be fixed

It’s high end machine from reputable manufacturer, it’s not faulty unit but a matter of settings.

I know you posted a link to thermometer above but I’m having enormous amount of expenses right now and will have to wait after Christmas to buy such device.

Yeah I can lower temperature but the issue and permanent solution is focusing on that off set modifier , I will try to alter temperature for now though to get better results, but fixing that setting is my primary focus.

Adrianmsmith

Until you can measure the actual temp in the basket, restricted flown using electricians tape except for a hand full of holes you are clutching at straws. Need some actual data .

oddbean

Is that with offset 0? As Dave was saying, just set the offset to zero, set the temperature to 100. Pull water through the head with no portafilter. visually check if it”s boiling. If it’s not boiling move the temp higher until it’s boiling. If it’s boiling at 105 you have an offset of 5. The offset it’s just a number that represents the difference between the temperature picked by the thermometer in the boiler and the temperature in that comes out of the group head. I hope i havent repeated what was already said.

Adrianmsmith

oddbean The offset it’s just a number that represents the difference between the temperature picked by the thermometer in the boiler and the temperature in that comes out of the group head. I hope i havent repeated what was already said.

I think that was worth repeating as I think in general the offset is misunderstood as being a correction for the electronics.

But also as I have said before, the actual temperature of the water needs measuring in a restricted basket. You can’t just look for evidence of steam and thing. Oh it’s boiling.

MediumRoastSteam

oddbean Is that with offset 0? As Dave was saying, just set the offset to zero, set the temperature to 100.

I think ecm machines now have an offset where the 0 is not really zero; as you can program the offset going up or down (negative). So who knows where the “real” zero is. I don’t understand why manufacturers make things more complicated when they don’t need to.

crimson89

I would also question the requirement for such temperatures, I’m sure the machine won’t cause any flash boiling if the temp is set at 88-93 and the extraction will still be perfectly acceptable no matter the roast level. It is increasingly understood temps higher than 94 are hardly useful even for the lightest of roasts..

oddbean

MediumRoastSteam 0 is zero :) It is odd to have negative offset values, as that would mean temperature rises from boiler to puck. Elizabeth is set to 10. Which means, if set(and shown) temperature is 92, boiler temperature should be 102(set temperature 92 + offset 10). If offset is negative, say -2 and set temperature is 92 ,then boiler temperature should be 90 (set temperature 92 + offset (-2)).

Adrianmsmith

MediumRoastSteam I don’t understand why manufacturers make things more complicated when they don’t need to

Definitely agree with that. It’s just as though the programmers have never seen or more importantly, used the machine, Their daily go to being Earl Grey tea and they have to come up with fancy ways of earning their keep. Every time someone reinvents the wheel they make it more Square and make a simple concept unnecessarily complicated.

Adrianmsmith

oddbean 0 is zero :) It is odd to have negative offset values, as that would mean temperature rises from boiler to puck.

It’s more odd that you’ll make a statement like that. Obviously it’s more than possible and absolutely normal to have positive and negative offsets.

You may be missing what the term offset means. It basically means variance from. The variance from is from the already hard-coded offset that they have hidden away that we cannot see (I assume this to be correct as I do not have this machine . reading this post I think you cannot see it) so if that is let’us assume 95 then that is the temperature of the water in the boiler at the thermostat point plus their hidden number. The offset is to allow you to get whatever temperature you need at the puck. In this instance from memory, I think you are saying the offset is from an already preset offset. So if the offset you set is two, it’s not necessarily 2 and this is what is confusing matters. I guess you could argue at this point that a negative value is not needed and you are going to say you are always going to lose temperature on the way to the puck but that does not mean it is odd or invalid though.

What is interesting If not odd is that throughout the whole post I don’t think I have ever seen ( and I have not read back to confirm) what the actual temperature of the water is at the puck so it is all guesswork with no data.

MediumRoastSteam

oddbean 0 is zero :) It is odd to have negative offset values, as that would mean temperature rises from boiler to puck.

If the manufacturer hardcoded an offset that you haven’t got a clue what it is, and that you can change that offset up or down - zero is not necessarily zero.

oddbean

Adrianmsmith as i said earlier, it does not matter if the machine has a hardcoded offset.

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