Wendougee Data

DavecUK

I guess my point is all companies go through bad patches, depending on how old an experience is, it's easy to give them quite negative feedback. The only thing is new members look at the comments and don't have the context that people assume they might. Context can be things like:

3 or 4 years ago
happened once
was a new machine to market
no idea of how/if it was resolved
etc..

I'm not defending anyone, I just think all companies have issues from time to time and especially with new machines. I can think of a few Lelit hiccups (as well as other companies).

So someone reading posts might conclude quite a few companies and retailers are rubbish and the decent is the only machine they should get. Or, La Marzocco machines are fault free (which they are not and do have quite a few issues, esp around temp control, SCACE one and you will see). However La Marzocco are very specific about maintenance (lots of it) and water, they are expensive and so owners do tend to do what they are told…and surprise surprise, they don't get so many faults.

However, it is what it is…just bear in mind you and all users create the environment and machines you get. I remember speaking to a Retailer at the show who insisted a machine should be produced with the E61 lever group, not the Solenoid group, so sadly, that's what his customers will get. A shame because they loose out on a lot of features.

Another person told me how the pressures were being miscalculated by the ACS software, now I was very ill at the time and told him know that wasn't the problem, as that Swiss pressure sensor had been in used for a decade and on many machines (the coder also coded for pressures on some of those machines). Would they have it no, they were an expert in pressure sensors and whatever, just wouldn't shut up why my I'll brain was working it out (which I did and confirmed it with tests back at the factory on a machine I insisted was configured to my spec). Needless to say, they were spouting total bollocks..but I wonder when that will appear in a forum somewhere??

Adrianmsmith

DavecUK Another person told me how the pressures were being miscalculated by the ACS software,

Did they elaborate on why they thought that, given that it directly follows the mechanical gauge on the group with a difference to be expected by its position in the system, without resorting to trying to verify the output from the sensor?

BrendaninBrooklyn

DavecUK

With all respect, Decent is not complicated for owner's.

To use, while there are a vast number of adjustments that can be made, one really only has to push a button. Owner service requirements are minimal compared to E61 machines. Decent's diagnostics eliminate a lot of guees work if a problem occurs. Decent's repair policies are unmatched including ease of doing so if needed.

Modern aircraft are more complex than biplanes but I know which I'd rather travel in.

delta76

BrendaninBrooklyn agreed. I think that is the common misconception about Decent. It can be as simple or sophisticated as the owner wants it to be. The machine empowers you to do what you want, not get in your way/on your face. It does what you tell it to do with precision and reliability.
Also, Coming from an E61 + flow control, I am relieved how easy routine cleaning + maintenance has become.

DavecUK

BrendaninBrooklyn With all respect, Decent is not complicated for owner's.

Did I say it was??????

I have one objection only with Decents sales policy, they value the machine at a very tiny amount then put the true price on the software. They warn you that you may need to declare VAT on this amount, depending on your local laws. This abrogates them of any responsibility for VAT fraud by their customers and be under no illusion, HMRC can go back 20 years in this type of case.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

David,

Usually, I'd agree because most product noise is just hype. Decent really is different.

It's not just the machine. It is the firm's transparency, customer-centric policies, ease of communication, really everything about the experience. If you haven't looked at all of this you won't know. However Jake and others here do.

And as I've said to both Jake and Adrian, if I ever switch from levers, Decent is the sole firm on my shortlist.

How your Atom 75 is settling in ? Awaiting your news.

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn How your Atom 75 is settling in ? Awaiting your news.

Still waiting for it. I believe Eureka were dispatching the order to BB next week, so not long to wait now. Will update as things happen

dfk41

I am sure Decent have influenced the way machine manufacturers behave worldwide, but there is one thing I struggle with. If the hardware is only disclosed as approximately £500 then I seriously doubt many new purchasers bother to declare the software element for VAT. The website tells you to do this so you do not have a leg to stand on if investigated for vat fraud.

Cuprajake

dfk41 if we are going down that boot and route i didnt pay import on my evo 2

Works both ways

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

David, see my reply to Dave C below

BrendaninBrooklyn

DavecUK

I think they are right. The value of this machine is not so much in the physical bits; it is in the intellectual property embodied in the software.

The physical bits are likely only worth that much.

If a customer fails to declare the software (assuming sales tax / VAT on software applies), that is the customer's concern. I wouldn't chance it but someone else might. If no VAT applies to software so be it.

Remember John B, the primary founder, emerged from Silicon Valley where IP always has a high value and hardware is often looked at as a liability (inherently diminishing asset).

As they've sold roughly 15,000 machines without problems with revenue authorities, I believe the revenue authorities take the same view. Decent uses top IP law firms so they undoubtedly received clear advice that this policy is legal and sound.

Adrianmsmith

Cuprajake f we are going down that boot and route i didnt pay import on my

Nor me on my df83 purchased from espresso outlet, drop shipped from china…..

dfk41

Cuprajake dfk41 if we are going down that boot and route i didnt pay import on my evo 2

Works both ways

I paid import duty on my Evo and was glad to do so. Are you saying ACS do this as a way of reducing the cost to the consumer like Decent do? Two wrongs do not make a right.

DavecUK

Adrianmsmith Did they elaborate on why they thought that, given that it directly follows the mechanical gauge on the group with a difference to be expected by its position in the system, without resorting to trying to verify the output from the sensor?

No because this was the Falcon I, which uses same pressure sensor and pressure calculation algorithms. They were more interested in being right than listening or understanding.

Cuprajake

dfk41 can only speak of my experience.

Paid it on the evo handles which were poor quality

Then didnt on the machine. Wether that was a gesture to me im unsure.

But winds me up when that excuse is used for decent and it happens to every other brand

delta76

DavecUK and this highlights how important it is to have a maker who listens to feedback and criticism and improve their products based on that. Decent has evolved since 1.0 to 1.45 and soon 1.46 with numerous improvements from feedbacks, and no machine is made obsolete - every machine can be upgraded should the owner want to do it, with reasonable cost.
Some view that as Decent is a perpetual beta machine, but I think it set it apart from the market.
Also, disclosing these numbers is kind of crazy https://www.home-barista.com/marketplace/decent-espresso-news-t66649-1750.html#p981355. I don't bother finding newer numbers but well, that transparency and confidence in their product is second to none.

BrendaninBrooklyn

DavecUK After 20 years, I think I have a feel for what the majority want and it's not a Decent, or Wenbdougee, or other super complicated machines.

yes, here -- unless I am misreading

DavecUK

BrendaninBrooklyn yes, here -- unless I am misreading

read it more carefully!

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn Decent uses top IP law firms so they undoubtedly received clear advice that this policy is legal and sound.

That is as maybe but their website tells you how much vat to expect to pay, as per the photo below. This therefore means they are placing the onus firmly on to the shoulders of the person buying it should anything go wrong. Let us just say of the 15,000 machines sold worldwide, 200 are UK bound. In another 5 years that might be 350. The VAT man at some point will become interested, after all, it is free money.

DavecUK

BrendaninBrooklyn As they've sold roughly 15,000 machines without problems with revenue authorities, I believe the revenue authorities take the same view. Decent uses top IP law firms so they undoubtedly received clear advice that this policy is legal and sound.

For Decent yes, they are doing everything legally (and they cover themselves by telling you you should declare VAT under your applicable laws), it's their customers who are not declaring VAT

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

David,

You are thinking of this as a normal espresso machine -- a big hunk of metal with a lot of parts. What Decent is selling is a computer with bundled software. Different valuation.

I'd strongly guess the UK has 1,000 or more of these already, btw.

And again, John B was deeply in Silicon Valley. If there was any problem with this valuation he would know and being extremely ethical (yes very, very much so) he would not do it.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

the variable VAT -- they do sell parts, upgrade kits, accessories -- all will be VATed differently.

BrendaninBrooklyn

dfk41

and they also sell refurb; seconds, etc -- also subject to different rates

dfk41

BrendaninBrooklyn David,

You are thinking of this as a normal espresso machine -- a big hunk of metal with a lot of parts. What Decent is selling is a computer with bundled software. Different valuation.

Hiya, I hope that this next question does not show my ignorance, but, is there no vat due on software whether imported or not?

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