Co-ferments

HarveyMushman

How do people feel about co-fermented coffee? Has anyone tried any good/bad ones?

For those who haven’t heard of them (which was me until about a month ago) it’s an experimental process where additional elements are added to the fermentation process of the coffee cherry. Usually things like spices or fruits. Not unlike what is sometimes done with beer I suppose.

Clearly it’s questionable as to whether it’s still ‘coffee’ in it’s truest form if fruit has been added to flavour the result but taken at face value as a drink with a flavour, I’ve had some quite pleasing ones.

A notable one was El Encanto from Skinny Dip. It was very clearly apparent that it was a co-ferment in the flavour but not unpleasant at all. It’s not something I’d drink every day but I’m quite interested in trying others.

LMSC

Don’t like them as a concept as beans’ natural tastes and flavours are lost. May be easy to hide “less quality” ones and charge more.

There is a recent thread which covers a few aspects in detail.

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/3847-coffee-prices-and-value-for-money/17

Edit:

It’s ok for a change as a “fruit-infused coffee”.

MWJB

Not sure I have had any ‘bad’ ones, a couple that were lacking in intensity and felt a bit like they were bolstering up unremarkable beans. I had quite a few that I really enjoyed.

If buying coffee based on the taste notes, co-ferments usually bump these into the ‘more tangible’ region.

Differing processes affect the flavour of beans (is the ‘natural flavour’ of a coffee only apparent in a natural, or a washed, or a honey?), I guess it’s just a matter of deciding how far is too far for you, judged against how much you like the coffee in the cup?

scwheeler

I mainly drink flat whites, I’ve had a peach co-ferment and a watermelon one and they both definitely did not work with milk.

FadedFrontiers

I’ve tried co-ferments from well respected roasters like Dak and Kiss the Hippo but even if the beans are good quality to begin with you won’t be able to tell. Kiss the Hippo’s Fruitopia blend in particular was undrinkable for me and could have passed for a tropical vape flavour, Dak’s Christmas blend was marginally better but I find the artificial flavouring always tends to overpower everything else in my experience.

You may have more success, and maybe they’ll improve as other experimental processes have done too, but in general I find the lack of transparency around what exact ingredients are being used in co-ferments pretty concerning too.

Platypus

I tried a “Dak Cardamom bun” a few months ago . I honestly didn’t know whether I liked it or not, it was interesting and different and so unlike my usual coffee. I probably wouldn’t buy it again but then I wouldn’t say no if someone offered me one. I think they are fine for now and again but more than that and I would tire of the flavour. I wouldn’t want it as the only bean in the house, a bit like eating too much chocolate.

guyy

Some taste very much of chemical additives. I avoid such coffees and any roasters, shops or producers who peddle them.

thetravdog

I just don’t understand them. They’re very expensive to buy but honestly the farmers could just be using them hide beans that didn’t make the grade by adding all these whacky fruit flavours. I’ve tried a couple from Catalyst a while back and whilst it tasted fun on filter at LCF, it was overwhelming as an espresso and did not work with milk. There’s very little information on them when you buy about what they’re actually infusing the cherries with. I like the odd extended anaerobic fermentation from time to time, but I like that it’s more of a natural process rather than adding anything to the natural coffee cherry.

MWJB

thetravdog I like that it’s more of a natural process rather than adding anything to the natural coffee cherry.

Whilst I get what you are saying, there is very little that is natural about coffee beverage. It doesn’t occur in nature, it is only ever man made. Each to their own, but I find it a little curious to suggest that certain types of fermentation/processing were any less natural than, say, drinking coffee with milk (only because it is most normally an adjunct and lactose intolerance in adults is more common worldwide, than not - not commenting on anyone’s preference).

E. coli and bubonic plague and saw-scaled vipers are all natural. :-)

I always find these discussions & perspectives interesting.

thetravdog

MWJB I think all that’s a given. I’m not going to be making the coffee by grinding it with a stone or something, and I know what milk does to coffee. We’re comparing coffees here so I don’t quite get your point. Adding things to a coffee that aren’t usually there is certainly more unnatural than not. I just wish there was a lot more detail as to exactly what and how it’s being added.

Adrianmsmith

thetravdog I’m not going to be making the coffee by grinding it with a stone

Why, ask lance if he’s finished with the review model of webers sg-1 . May be a available for loan?

Adrianmsmith

thetravdog the farmers could just be using them hide beans that didn’t make the grade by adding all these whacky fruit flavours.

That makes 2 of us.

LMSC

Most of the roasters mention what’s involved in the fermentation: ex: strawberry pulp/cacao-based yeasts in one case and passion fruit/selected yeast in the other. For a retail coffee page, that feels pretty adequate unless we’re expecting a full fermentation protocol with ratios, temperatures and microbiology notes.”

Please look at these sample pages detailing our the process:

https://spaceboycoffee.co.uk/shop/p/encanto

https://heartandgraft.co.uk/product/colombia-passion-fruit-co-ferment-2/

😊

guyy

LMSC

Some producers have confessed that they have used artificial flavourings, something they had not disclosed before, and some others have been outed by chemical analyses. There is still a long road ahead before we have full and honest labeling.

thetravdog

LMSC that’s definitely better information than a lot I’ve seen and that level of detail isn’t the norm imo. It’s when I see things like watermelon and I’m like hmm did you really add watermelon to the coffee, or you adding lots of other things and then that ends up tasting like watermelon. It’s a whole different thing vs your washed, honey or natural. It definitely can undermine what I think specialty coffee is which is tasting of a place, of a soil and an altitude for example. There are exceptions to the rule of course, I’m not here to knock every co ferment out there but I do think what’s the point of taking so much care to grow coffee with so much care only to slap fruit flavours over the top? It’s hard to know what to trust.

LMSC

Fair play is a rare commodity these days. As I said before, I’m not a fan of co-ferments, and I don’t buy them.

MWJB

So, out of interest, what are the fruit flavours that people most commonly perceive from non fruit co-ferment coffees?

LMSC

MWJB

The usual suspects stone fruits, citrus, berries and passion fruits.

LMSC

MWJB

I asked O365 copilot to analyse my brew logs to see what it can find.

Quick read: This is not “passion fruit everywhere”; the brew log is more of a three-way fruit fight between citrus, tropicals and berries. Stone fruit is present, but mostly as a honourable finisher than the headline act.

Snapshot

Brew log analysed: 217 bags from Duo sheet, Roaster Notes
Overall trend: citrus, tropical/passion fruits and berries dominate; stone fruits are secondary

Fruit-family stats

Citrus: 86 mentions, 29.6% of mapped fruit notes
Passion / tropical fruits: 82 mentions, 28.2%
Berries: 76 mentions, 26.1%
Stone fruits: 47 mentions, 16.2%
Total mapped fruit mentions: 291

Bag-level presence

Citrus: appears in 73 of 217 bags, 33.6%
Berries: appears in 70 of 217 bags, 32.3%
Passion / tropical fruits: appears in 68 of 217 bags, 31.3%
Stone fruits: appears in 43 of 217 bags, 19.8%

Interesting but not surprising. Passion / tropical fruits are my favourites. 😀

HarveyMushman

Lots of interesting discussion!

I completely agree with @MWJB it seems to make the tasting notes seem more tangible.

I’ve not tried them as espresso based drinks and only had them in coffee shops where they’ve been an option for brewed coffee.

I don’t think I’d enjoy them as espresso and can see why people aren’t keen. For me they’ve worked best in very light pour-over coffees where the cup has been close to tea like. I can see why people wonder by this point if it’s still really coffee.

I know I said it in the op but it reminds me of hoppy craft beers where some of the heavily dry hopped east coast IPA can have a flavour and texture that almost completely masks what one might recognise as ‘beer’. Albeit adding hops has always been part of the process.

I’d draw the line at artificial flavourings but the few I’ve had that used other fruit pulps as co-ferments have been enjoyable.