Lelit v Lelit v Lelit

JohnnyForeigner

Good morning!

I seek some advice as an espresso newbie looking for a machine. My extensive research has led me to Lelit - I like their range, style, customer responsiveness and video tutorials.

I will drink 1-3 espressi(?) per day, with occasional milk drinks for my girlfriend (but frankly, she is happy with an espresso and cold milk). I would like PID control and pre-infusion ability. Logic suggests that the Victoria would be the best choice, though the Elizabeth also appeals (quick warm-up, tea water on demand). I also like the ‘set and forget’ aspect once I am dialled in. However… I cannot ignore the sheer mechanical elegance of the Mara X even though this is probably the least suited to my use. Obviously there is a subjective/emotional aspect to this but I would ask this auspicious forum whether I am missing any compelling arguments for or against the Mara X.

I will be using a good grinder but not a timer plug. Thanks for any advice.

Ps - I also read somewhere that Lelit may revise the Grace/Victoria range soon - not sure if this is true but that may factor into my decision if confirmed.

MediumRoastSteam

JohnnyForeigner - Welcome to the forum! it does seem that, in your case, the Victoria (if revised) are the right machines for you. If you only drink espresso, there’s no point in having a dual boiler. The Puristika or Classika (ECM) or the Unica (Bezzera) are also good contenders, but they sport an E61 group which will require maintenance (lubrication, drop screen periodically) and will take 30 minutes or so to warm up, if not more. However, you can install a flow control valve and get more for your coffee. Personally, I would not buy the MaraX in your case - unless you steam milk.

JohnnyForeigner

Good point on maintenance. I researched ECM and Bezzera but I like at least the option to steam and I appreciate the ability of Lelit to auto-fill the boilers afterwards. Thanks for the thoughts.

MediumRoastSteam

JohnnyForeigner - on dual boiler machines and HX machines, the brew boiler or HX is always full - it doesn’t auto fill. The service/steam boiler yes, it auto-fills. With single boiler dual use machines, you obviously need to remove headspace so steam can form and then fill up again when you are done with steaming. That’s why you need to purge he wand at the start and draw water from the wand at the end. The Lelit Victoria is not an auto fill machine either.

JohnnyForeigner

MediumRoastSteam Thanks for the additional info - that’s another plus for Liz and Mara.

hornbyben

JohnnyForeigner refilling a single boiler machine soon becomes a habit and personally I don’t think it is worth choosing a different machine based on this. If you’re doing espresso then it should stay full (water pushed in pushes water out). It’s only when steaming that you have to fill afterwards, as the water is being boiled off.

If you’re not doing back to back milk drinks I think a single boiler is a good choice. They’re cheaper to buy, smaller, easier to descale and more energy efficient. For steaming you’re heating 300ml from around 90°C to 140°C, whereas most double boilers you’re heating 1L+ from room temp each time. Even a HX like the Mara X you’re heating 1.8L to 125°C.

They’re just a bit slow for multiple milk drinks, as you can’t steam and brew at the same time, and there is a lag to steam temp, and then to brew again you have to flush water through until the temperature is back down to brew temp. I don’t regret getting a single boiler. It’s perfect most of the time. Even for 3 flat whites it doesn’t take that long, I tend to pull the 3 shots in a row and then steam the 360ml of milk I need to pour three flat whites. All in it probably takes me 5-10 mins, not a deal breaker.

Like all things, your use case and preferences will ultimately decide what is right for you.

Enjoy the shopping (and deliberating).

JohnnyForeigner

hornbyben Thanks for the in-depth thoughts. Indeed, energy efficiency more important than ever with global prices, events, etc… SB is probably the ‘head’ choice but HX the ‘heart’. And yes, the deliberation is all part of the fun, though I hope to avoid being the curse of overthinking…

hornbyben

JohnnyForeigner The curse of overthinking is probably a given, I think you have to accept that 🤣.

Obviously make our own choice, but I don’t think an HX machine would ever be my heart choice, they’re just not thermally precise enough in my opinion. The brewing water temperature is based on a thermosyphen, where water is over heated, flows round the group (cooling it) and then back into the bottom. Does it work, yes; Is it efficient in that it lets you brew and steam with a single boiler, yes, but is it elegant and precise, not in my opinion. It will never compete with the thermal precision of a PID controlled boiler (be that single boiler or the brew boiler of a double boiler). I can totally see the appeal of a double boiler machine, but to me an HX is the compromise you make when you need to be able to make a lot of milk drinks back to back and don’t want to spend what a double boiler costs.

The other question to ask yourself is do you like tinkering, and are you happy messing around with mains electricity? If the answer is yes then getting a single boiler and modding it is another option. This can let you get some real flexibility and single boilers are often especially suitable. This obviously isn’t for everyone, but I thought I’d make you aware of the option. Here’s a link to the modifications I did to my single boiler: https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/256-poor-mans-decent-espresso-itoleva/59. This is the upper end of complexity but shows the possible.

Doram

JohnnyForeigner SB is probably the ‘head’ choice but HX the ‘heart’

If you don’t go with your heart, your heart might nag you until you give up and get what it wanted. Therefore, the “head” choice might be to go with your heart. :-)

(not saying anything about any specific machine. I am joking a bit, but also a bit serious: it’s a hobby, a luxury, a treat, so it might not be a bad idea to go with what you really want, so you won’t regret it later).

JohnnyForeigner

hornbyben All good points nudging me (reluctantly…) away from HX. I don’t have the skills to tinker however.

Again, thanks for the feedback.

hornbyben

JohnnyForeigner no problem. You can always be nudged up to a double boiler 🤣

pasgal

JohnnyForeigner There is one plus point, the most important of all for me, the one that made me click the button for MaraX, the heat exchanger (HX). I don’t like drinking coffee that is made of water that has been still for a long time and in contact with a heat coil (I don’t know what it’s called in English, in Italian it’s called heat resistance), like drinking from an iron for ironing clothes. This is the primary condition, in my opinion, to always drink coffee made from new water.

dndrich

One advantage of the Elizabeth is it is very easy to put into eco mode with the steam boiler off. You could use it that way most of the time, and when you need to do a milk drink, fire up the steam boiler. It takes about 5 minutes to heat and be ready.

JohnnyForeigner

Thanks to all those who replied, and steered me grudgingly away from the Mara. As someone who is mechanically inept, I have come to realise I would only scratch or dent the machine carrying out even basic maintenance tasks.

So, Victoria or Elizabeth it shall be, depending on a) when the new updates are released and/or b) available deals on these or existing models. In the meantime, I continue to hone my French press and moka pot extraction skills in preparation.

Thank you again, forum contributors.

MediumRoastSteam

pasgal There is one plus point, the most important of all for me, the one that made me click the button for MaraX, the heat exchanger (HX). I don’t like drinking coffee that is made of water that has been still for a long time and in contact with a heat coil

In which case you’ll need to flush 150ml - 200ml at least from the first time you use the machine on that day at least.

pasgal

MediumRoastSteam Sure, but not on that day, at every session, in the 4 times I drink coffee, it will always be new water for me. It’s my opinion, the double boiler machine can never give the same taste as an HX