I would really appreciate some help with working out my water analysis and how to best proceed please. I'm completely stuck and feel a right dunce. I've been reading the threads on this forum and on coffeeforum about water and I bought a Zero Water jug and an API GH & KH water testing kit (). I downloaded the water report from my local authority and I downloaded a copy of the Scaling Potential Calculator. Unfortunately I can't make head nor tail of what figures to extract from the water report, how to interpret the GH/KH test kit figures and which figures to put where in the [Water Spreadsheet Calculator](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UoVpIiK-datDqA8zqwvExpQleUcerboDTAH4xBP91hU/edit#gid=997440310 "Water SpreadSheet Calculator"). So I was hoping someone might take a look and help me out. My water authority figures are at With regards to the results I got from the API GH & KH test kit I found that using the Zero Water water I needed 2 drops of the KH test and 2 drops of the GH kit to get the colour change they talk about, which, according to their table says ºdKH is 2 and ppm GH/KH is 35.8 (no idea what ºdKH is). Then using tap water the KH needed 3 drops to change colour which says ºdKH is 3 and ppm GH/KH is 53.7; the GH test needed 5 drops so ºdKH is 5 and ppm GH/KH 89.5. The trouble is I don't know what those figures mean and especially, as is the case with the tap water, there are a different number of drops needed for KH and GH, which column and row is the one I need to look at - this is the manual that comes with the kit: For the past 2 weeks I've simply been avoiding the problem and only using the Zero Water water but the last thing I want is to f\*\*\* up my new ACS Minima with scaling so if anyone has the time and inclination to look at the figures and tell me what I need to put where in the Water Spreadsheet Calculator and then what adjustment, if any, I need to make to the Zero Water I’d really appreciate it. A million thanks

I’ll try to be more specific about what I understand and what I don’t with regards to the water info and the spreadsheet: Looking at the Brewer’s Information on page 2 of the NWL water information I have started to fill out the first page of the Water Spreadsheet and I have: set cell B4 to 140.25 (page 2 NWL says that’s the CaCO3 mg/l - I don’t know if that’s what’s needed in cell B4) However, I don’t know where to find values for cells B3, B5, or B6 using the NWL report. Cell B9 = 47.73 according to NWL report, if I’m reading it correctly C B10 = 5.09 again, NWL report Temp I’ve set at 93, and I did a TDS reading of 140 using a meter I bought. Any suggestions where I find the values for those missing cells? I’m still further worried that when I find those missing values I still don’t stand a chance of filling the other pages of the spreadsheet. I’ve looked at the Remineralisation Page example and don’t understand a word, and that’s with me reading it carefully half a dozen times. I think I’ll just go and make a coffee… and put some brandy in it :-)

I have a zero jug and use it with my tap water which is very hard (circa 350 tds). The zero water is literally zero after filtered. I remineralise with 320mg of sodium bicarbonate per 5 litres of zero water to raise the alkalinity

"(no idea what ºdKH is)" One degree German - 17.9ppm, hence 2 drops = 35.8ppm. It's normal for water to have differing amounts of hardness (GH) and alkalinity (KH), the figures can be the same, but shouldn't be expected to be equal. Are you sure the seal around the Zero filter is good, you should be getting 0TDS. No hardness, no alkalinity. Mix 3 parts tap water to 1 part Zero water (once you are getting 0TDS from the jug).

@"dutchy101"#p11158 I am looking to do the same as an easier water solution, but are you only using bicarb and not magnesium (Epsom salts)?

@"simonc"#p11228 Yes I'm only using sodium bicarbonate based on conversations I had in the bottled water thread.

@"MWJB"#p11176 The figures I've put in the spreadsheet, with hardness etc, are for my tap water, hence the 140 for hardness and the other figures. Should I fill in the spreadsheet again perhaps and put in figures that I have from the API water test?

> @"MWJB"#p11176 Mix 3 parts tap water to 1 part Zero water (once you are getting 0TDS from the jug) Are you choosing those proportions based on the figures for my tap water that I've put in the spreadsheet (assuming 0TDS from the jug) - or is that a general ratio starting point?

@"Java_avaJ"#p11255 It'll be based on the figures.

@"Java_avaJ"#p11148 You need to increase the resolution of the API water test by using a larger sample. e.g a 20ml sample instead of 5ml will be 4x more accurate and instead of 1 drop of the reagent = approx 17.9ppm it'll be 4.475ppm The test is giving you results in degrees, there'll be a leaflet in there to translate it to ppm which is the same as mg/l. GH is General hardness, KH is alkalinity. Both are expressed "as CaCO3" so when you say you put a figure in the spreadsheet for CaCO3 it's not clear if you put it in there for hardness to alkalinity. Some water reports don't list alkalinity as CaCo3 and they might not even list bicarbonate either. Sometimes there is a more in depth report a few clicks away though. Your test kit will likely give you more current results anyway, just so long as you use it right. Only add drops until the colour changes, don't wait for the colour to change to a "bright" colour that the instructions describe. I use a little espresso cup for a 20ml sample and just stir it continuously while adding a drop at a time. You need to sort out your zero jug because it's not filtering properly.

> @"Java_avaJ"#p11157 set cell B4 to 140.25 (page 2 NWL says that’s the CaCO3 mg/l - I don’t know if that’s what’s needed in cell B4) > However, I don’t know where to find values for cells B3, B5, or B6 using the NWL report. > > Cell B9 = 47.73 according to NWL report, if I’m reading it correctly > C B10 = 5.09 again, NWL report In addition to the above point re things being described "as CaCO3" you've probably noticed that the spreadsheet gives you a "Total hardness as CaCO3" figure pretty much equal to the value you stuck into the carbonate cell. You need to remove that because what you've done is add the hardness as CaCO3 to the part of the spreadsheet used to calculate alkalinity if the water report gives you Carbonate or Bicarbonate figures…..

Water help needed please

MediumRoastSteam

Eyedee , I’m told the water needs to have a certain amount of minerals in it to allow the sensor to ground and shut off the pump.

For what’s worth… I’ve been using the Lelit Elizabeth (so it has auto fill solenoid and fill sensors) for the past 21 months with distilled water (0 PPM) + 100mg of sodium bicarbonate or potassium bicarbonate per litre (or thereabouts, I’m not clinical to the point of guaranteed consistency for this) and, when I do spot checks with my TDS meter, it’s always between 50 to 65 ppm.

Never had problems. I’m not questioning that the sensors need minerals so the water can conduct electricity and therefore the sensor can work, but you need a very minimal amount of minerals in order to do so.

20% bypass… What does that mean? A 20% bypass with London water means a lot more minerals allowed through if compared to the same 20% in the north of Scotland, for example.

Rob1

Eyedee

It’s extremely unlikely your water is not conductive. It would have to be very pure and your RO system will not be capable of producing water that pure. My distiller isn’t even capable of it.

The Minimas used to have a problem with the grounding loop. Uness BB have installed spacers under the gicar the wires may still be pinched there causing this issue. Replacing the sensor was probably not necessary unless the wires were damaged, but in replacing it the issue may have been temporarily solved as it obviously involves removing and replacing the wires that run under the gicar controller.

simonc

Rob1

Rob1 how do you know it needs flushing out?

Rob1

simonc Simple calculations.….or complex calculations. Basically, I know the composition of the water in the boiler, and I know the composition of the water going in, and I know how much water is used on average, and so can easily calculate when scale will start to form approximately.

Sham

So rather than making another thread Ill ask here: What would be the cheapest way to get the best water (included ongoing costs such as filters)? Zero jug + sodium bicarbonate?

Rob1

Not sure. Long term maybe an RO system is cheaper. My £60 distiller is still going strong after about 4 years. Not sure if it’s the cheapest with running costs in mind, shouldn’t be too difficult to figure out the cost of filters per year for zero or ro units vs electricity cost per litre…..then you just approximate how much you get through in a year.

Eyedee

Thanks everyone for your contributions to my problem. Here’s another item to add to the equation, yesterday my machine was switched on for around 5 hours, coffees made but no exessive pump noises were experienced.

I haven’t touched anything re cleaning or testing so I am now even more puzzled with this machine. The fault may rear it’s ugly head again I feel sure until then although I have lost a certain amount of confidence with the machine it’s still being used.

Ian

Rob1

Open it up and see if the gicar has spacers or not. Does the pump run until it leaks through the fixtures at the top lile the anti-vac valve, or randomly trigger a refill i.e not some time after using the service boiler, when the boiler is hested is there an excessive amount of water coming out of the anti-vac valve? There should be a couple of drops that quickly evaporate, not a puddle running across the top of the boiler.

DavecUK

With the Minima there was a problem if the gicar was earthed to the boiler, it’s a black wire coming from the gicar box, not the one that goes to the probe, that forms and earth for the entire circuit.

The suspicion was small induced currents. The detection circuit being so sensitive it disrupted things. ACS said when they grounded the black wire from the Gicar to the frame, and not the boiler, this overfill issue stopped.

Eyedee

Just emptied the sevice boiler and removed all the casing. The gicar is packed off slightly with 2 black wires running underneath it, both are easy to move so I can definately state they are not trapped.

There is no exessive water coming out of the anti-vac valve just as you say a couple of drops which evaporate off when up to temp.

The pump kicks in rather randomly, just to update I’m on day 3 with no problems (touch wood).

After the first time the pump overfilled and gave me wet steam I became very aware of the pump noises and would jump up and turn the three way switch off when it happened which of course stopped the overfill even when switched back to normal. It’s almost like it cleared whatever was causing the overfill.

Normal service is for the autofill to kick in when first switched on and run for about 10 seconds, if I draw water or after using steam I expect the pump to run but often only for about 5 seconds just topping up. I’m listening and mentally counting to make sure it’s not overfilling.

Prior to this overfilling episodes I did leave the machine on all day just on brew but now I don’t have confidence to do this.

Ian

DavecUK

Eyedee Ian did you check whether the 2nd Gicar wire was earthed to the boiler or the frame!

Eyedee

No I didn’t as I actually couldn’t follow it.

Just the fact that it’s working ok now with RO water in leads ME to think it might be a water issue.

Ian

DavecUK

Eyedee Seriously, this is information Paolo gave me. Trace the 2 wires from the Gicar box, one will go to the autofill probe, the other will either earth on the boiler or the frame. He said in all machines that had a random overfill problem, it was fixed by moving the gicar earth point to the frame.

Eyedee

Ok Dave I’ll have a go at that, how would the earth have to be fixed, soldered on to the frame ??

Ian

DavecUK

Eyedee I personally would try and use any suitable screw on the frame, and if I had too the Gicar box one. Just make sure it won’t come off.

Eyedee

Thanks Dave for the info and push to do this even though the machine seemed to be functioning ok.

Pulled it apart again, the earth wire was on to a stud brazed on to the boiler. Repositioned on to the base plate and bolted it on. It was a bit fiddly but I used my hero’s motto, “what one man can do another can, given time”

Let’s hope this is the definative solution.

Ian

DavecUK

Eyedee Let’s hope this is the definative solution.

Chances are it is…if it had not been bolted onto the boiler….then I would have said hmm dunno.

DavecUK

Eyedee Has it solved the problem?

dutchy101

@Rob1 So I’ve just done another test of the water in the service boiler taken 17 days after the last (first) flush, which I did after 6 weeks of ownership from new. (I’ve only taken a little bit of water out after letting the steam boiler get up to temperature and used this as a sample)

Alkalinity has doubled again - gone up to 18 drops so 322 / 4 = 80.55 on the KH test.

GH is 17.9 / 4 so approximately 4.5 - the water goes greenish after 1 drop and there is no orange at all.

The water in the TDS reader was showing 82 (versus 25 before it goes into the machine).

Does the rise in alkalinity seem odd?

Rob1

dutchy101 Not at all, alkalinity and hardness will both rise equally.

Eyedee

Dave,

I have been frightened to shout about this as it might put a curse on the machine BUT since moving the earth tag on to the body of the machine I have not had any overfill incidents. Messing about for about a year, swapping sensors, changing waters etc all amounted to nothing until now. I cannot begin to tell you how pleased I am, just to let you know how frustated we were it had got to the state that we were of a mind to throw the machine in the bin and buy another.

Ian

DavecUK

Eyedee Very pleased Ian, it’s a machine that should still be enjoyed by someone 20 years from now.

Funny though, the theory was it was heating element interference/noise affecting a very sensitive circuit, whatever it was, it fixes it!

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