Hi All, recently moved over from the coffee forums after I realised everyone had left, just wanted to see what peoples thoughts are on the zerowater jugs? https://zerowater.co.uk/pages/shop are they actually good enough to use in a high end coffee machine?

@"Mik3"#p12443 Welcome to the forum, yeah I think people like the Zerowater jugs, they definitely work. Some do like to remineralise so it won't scale but tastes better. @"Rob1"#171 will probably stop in to advise. I guess all the adverts on CFUK starting to hurt your eyes…plus not a lot going on there now. Mainly business spam, paid forum fluffers, and the one post BTC machine users. 😉

@"DavecUK"#p12457 think it was mainly the signatures of people like yourself saying you no longer used the forums that made me look elsewhere haha landed here with incredible timing for a deal on a new machine too so it’s already working out for the best! I previously had an under sink 6 stage RO system but don’t have the space for it here so looking for an alternate solution that requires no plumbing in / drilling through worktops without spending too much good to know, cheers

> @"Mik3"#p12469 without spending too much This is very relative. What’s your budget please ? Apart from ZeroWater , the other counter top ROs would also work well - Osmio Zero, Skuma water to name a few. The latter isn’t released yet I think, while the former will set you back by £450-£500 inc accessories. As Dave said, people are happy with ZeroWater. I won’t know what the frequency of filter change would be. We have some ZW users, who will be able to advise you.

@"LMSC"#p12471 yeah I have seen the osmio zero but was a touch on the pricey side at the moment as I also need a new grinder 😂 so far as budget it’s really as cheap as I can get but that will ensure the new coffee machine is cared for from day one. Was thinking the zerowater would be a good option as I can get a 2.8l jug (big enough to fill the water tank in the machine) and 4 spare cartridges for \~£80 currently, just conscious that a £40 jug might not be as good as it claimed? My old under counter fixed unit was less than £300 but I left it in my last house, the glass kettle I had for 5 years still had a mirror finish on the element so really looking for the best I can get without breaking the bank to keep my machine as clean as I can

@"Mik3"#p12481 Neither I know what your machine is nor the ZW. Of course, we understand the budget constraint. So, spend wisely. If we are spending Ks on a machine, it remains good for a long time assuming she gets good water and TLC. We also have to be aware of the frequency of filter change, the cost of filters and a temporary or a permanent nature of the water solution. The longer the duration, the higher the cost and more so, if l hard water. The ROs may also require frequent filter change if you live in a hard water area. Some of us have Osmio Zero; she gets softened water. The filter therefore lasts 1 year at least. We view the one-time outlay as worth every penny. We drink, cook and feeds the coffee machine. Edit : I think @"dutchy101"#56 uses the Zero Jug.

I'm not sure you'll get 2.8l of purified water in that jug from a single fill. The filtration media has quite a lot of resistance, I found that if the bottom got too full, flow would stop. It was good for about a litre a time from the 2.3L version. If I bought a Zerowater again, I'd go for a larger reservoir.

@"LMSC"#p12487 yeah unfortunately the water here is classified as hard, it’s another reason I want to ensure there is a good level of filtering prior to any of it going anywhere, conscious £60 every 4-6 months would be adding up quickly on top of the £450 “If you have a hardness level over 250 Calcium Carbonate then you may need to change the carbon block and membrane more frequently than every 6 months.” the water company tells me it’s 281 mg/l of calcium carbonate

@"MWJB"#p12491 good to know, thanks for the insight, I was thinking it meant 2.8l filtered but most likely it’s the jugs capacity then

I've been using the 2.8l zero jug for about 4 months & remineralising for coffee. I reckon the usable capacity is around 2.6-2.7l from filling my 5l water bottle. Luckily I live in a soft water area < 50mg hardness & the original filter is still going strong running about 10 litres a week through it. The only minor niggle is the cover over the spout. It doesn't open enough on its own when pouring so the water stream can be broad & if you manually open it won't lock into place fully & flips down when pouring. So I end up having to hold the dam thing open. I suppose I could remove it but I do like that it prevents anything dropping in the jug.

@"Mik3"#p12493 Do you have a whole house softener installed?

Zero water jugs

coffeealex

MediumRoastSteam Sorry missed that bit. Makes total sense

coffeealex

SurreyAlan It is interesting that as you say such a small amount of remineralisation the change in taste is so different. I would imagine that if water has a tds of 0 then the taste that you are getting must be of the inside of the mouth? as the water is tasteless.

MWJB

coffeealex SurreyAlan said that the taste of the coffee made with 0 TDS water was dry, not the water itself.

coffeealex

MWJB Appreciate that. Was just making the added observation as a question that if all minerals are taken out and you were to then taste the water then you would be tasting the inside of your mouth rather than the water?

MWJB

coffeealex That assumes water itself has no taste. Which might be so, I can’t recall tasting 0ppm TDS water.

There are levels of purity that are beyond 0ppm TDS, so even 0ppm TDS water has some stuff in it.

Isn’t there a similar phenomenon, to which you allude, with astronauts who have perceived that space has a ‘taste’ and that it’s more likely that the absence of anything else highlights the taste of the person’s mouth. I guess that even if that is true (I have no reason to doubt it) that then these conditions do essentially have a taste that is otherwise masked by the background in normal circumstances?

coffeealex

MWJB I have no idea myself whether it is true or not. I just thought on a level of pure curiosity whether the taste perceived from water with no minerals was likely to differ from person to person, (if in essence it was tasteless). Might not be of any value to anyone, except to fulfill my curiosity. I do remember, very vaguely regarding astronauts that I may have read once that they perceived space had a taste of raspberries??…………Maybe I’m totally wrong and more of my imagination running wild!

Rob1

coffeealex Just one other curiosity. Whats your views on using osmio zero with the remineralisation cartridge left in, as opposed to a blank one. I appreciate it is reintroducing minerals back in, but do you feel it would as a result ( in general) lead to the likelihood of scaling?

You need to know the water temperature, the hardness from Mg and Ca as CaCO3 and Alkalinity as CaCO3 in order to answer your question. Since the information isn’t present it’s not possible to answer the question and there’s no way of knowing what the mineral composition of the water will be with or without the remineralisation filter in your specific case.

Unfortunately, without Osmio revealing what is actually in the remineralisation cartridge with clarity there isn’t a way of quantifying an increase in scaling potential by using it as you don’t know what the additional alkalinity is coming from. You can say that there will be some bicarbonate alkalinity left in the water after RO and therefore any added Calcium or Magnesium will potentially cause some incalculable amount of scale in a service boiler, if not straight away then eventually, without flushing. You can say that assuming the remineralisation filter doesn’t add any carbonate alkalinity as any carbonate alkalinity present with precipitate as scale along with some hardness when non-carbonate alkalinity rises enough.

I think people who have tested water without the remineralisation filter have reported alkalinity around 20mg/l but it will vary depending on the water you put in.

MediumRoastSteam

ZeroWater says that although they can remove essentially all minerals, they can’t remove some organic matter from the water. Whereas, distilled water is likely to kill and leave behind organic matter.

I had the opportunity of tasting ZeroWater recently on its own, and it’s nicer (taste wise) than distilled.

coffeealex

MediumRoastSteam Would you know in your opinion if RO water is similar to zero water in taste?

MWJB

coffeealex You seem very interested in the taste of water, purified to some level at least. The recommendations for scaling in coffee machine boilers don’t specifically guarantee a taste for the coffee produced (beyond the broad notion of high alkalinity muting acidity).

To put in perspective, if you have 66mg/L of sodium bicarbonate in the water (for 40mg/L alkalinity asCaCO3) the coffee itself may be present at 100,000mg/L in espresso and 15,000mg/L for filter.

MediumRoastSteam

coffeealex - never had side by side, but had it at Dave’s a couple of times and it tasted nicer than distilled.

coffeealex

MWJB Thanks, the reason for my curiosity was more based along the fact that at some point I will look at purchasing skuma or oz to use not only for espresso making but also for drinking a glass of water. So personally I’m not too worried about how it might affect taste in espresso as I don’t think that will be an issue.As you point out the coffee itself in those cases would be dominant. The quality of water in espresso making for me would be more to its relevance in protecting the longevity and reliability of the machine rather than taste. As far as drinking a glass of plain water then yes I am curious as to taste.

coffeealex

MediumRoastSteam thank you. Zero water I find is not bad personally when drunk as plain water. Certainly better than my tap water which is not nice. I’m looking forward to skuma reviews which have I believe offer an option of remineralised water or demineralised through the touch of a button. Potentially offering the basis of great water for both espresso and for drinking

SurreyAlan

After lunch I lined up Zero water, Zero with the bicarb, Waitrose Lockhills and tap water which here comes from boreholes having filtered down through chalk. Zero water seemed OK but I still had the sense of dryness but not as much as when used in coffee, I don’t understand the perception of dryness is that what a dry Martini is like? I thought the zero with bicarb tasted awful, Lockhills was quite drinkable as is local tap water. For drinking I would only have tap which I think is very good here but Lockhills and I recall Tesco Ashbeck tasted fine too. As I have a few bottles of Lockhill might run that through, having reached an age where death could be 20 years off or just round the corner think I’m going to use what tastes best to me be it Tesco or Waitrose (but not our hard tap water) and not worry quite so much about the scale.

MWJB

Tasting the water doesn’t give you much idea as to what the coffee brewed with that water tastes like.

SurreyAlan

Indeed, I didn’t much care for coffee with Zero water, Zero with bicarb was an improvement, positions reversed compared to drinking the water. Neither as good for my taste as Ashbeck. I bought some Lockhill in case the tap water at a self catering place was unpleasant which as it wasn’t will now be tried for coffee.

caffeinated-carp

I’ve started delving in to the water topic and currently I’m very tempted with going with Zero Water jugs due to:

Cost
Size

I did a 2 year analysis of cost on Osmio Zero, Skuma, bottled and zero water. Now, this is all a bit rough, but basically it seems to me that these are the costs:

Osmio Zero - £693
Skuma - £469
Bottled water (Lockhills) - £291
Zero water - £142

Assumptions / notes:

All prices include machine purchase
Osmio and Skuma have 6 monthly filter changes
Osmio has sanitisation run every 6 months
You don’t add any hydrations on the Skuma
4 Zero water filters last a year

Now the above may be flawed but it’s probably in the right ballpark.

So my question is, what’s the benefit of the Osmio or Skuma? Do they do a better job at filtering, or is it the ease of use? Because with Zero Water you have to remineralise whereas Osmio and Skuma you don’t. Is there anything else to this that I’m missing? Because if it’s just about remineralising then I think for me the price difference and the space taken up by the machines outweighs the manual work of remineralising.

MediumRoastSteam

caffeinated-carp I did a 2 year analysis of cost on Osmio Zero, Skuma, bottled and zero water.

How many litres of water do you normally use (as in, which goes through your coffee machines, or for making coffees) in a month?

MediumRoastSteam

caffeinated-carp 21 litres a month.

Reason I ask:

caffeinated-carp Bottled water (Lockhills) - £291

5 Litres of Lockhills will cost you £1.40. So with £291 you can buy 1,035 litre of Lockhills, which would last you over 4 years. Are you sure your figures are correct? 😉👍

The Zero Water seems ok if you consider buying a jug and a set of 8 filters from ZeroWater right now, and you’ll be paying over the odds for it. The filters are often one sale, and you can definitely get a set of 4 for as little as £35 if you shop around.

MediumRoastSteam

caffeinated-carp With all the same variables Zero water costs £142

caffeinated-carp 4 Zero water filters last a year

What were the parameters? I mean, it can cost whatever you want, but a simple Google search tells me:

Zero water jug: £30 (includes 1 filter)
4 filters: £36, x2: £72
Total: £102

My point is that it’s not as expensive as you might think. It can be, but it does not need to be if you shop around.

Also, don’t forget that the Zero Water filters life span depends on your water quality and hardness (same on the Osmio and presumably Skuma). For instance, in my case, the Zero water filter will be good for approx. 40 litres. So if I had your water usage of 21L a month, I’d be looking at 7 or 8 filter per year.

caffeinated-carp

Apologies for the thread resurrection as well :D didn’t notice the date

caffeinated-carp

MediumRoastSteam Well I make probably 5 double shots a day, so lets say 36ml per double, then plus flushing - i suppose lets give a very generous figure of doubling it so 36ml espresso + 36ml flush, so 360ml a day if I don’t do any further flushing e.g. the service boiler, maybe lets keep a 300ml flush in every day for that, so 660ml a day, 21 litres a month.

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