Not sure, if we have a thread for this. I couldn’t find. This is one of my favourite brews. It’s faster, easier and always give a lovely cup - be it @"MWJB"#139’s or Hoffman’s method. Mostly, I use Mark’s as I find the cup is a little cleaner than Hoffman’s. Yesterday, I opened the [Ethiopian Haru Washed](https://www.thomsonscoffee.com/products/ethiopia-haru?_pos=2&_sid=4420db8ae&_ss=r&variant=39311835398231). Pulled a few shots and brewed on Clever. The cups were ok. I wasn’t impressed, given the cup score of 87.25. I bought this as a light roast. It’s a medium light for me. I am drinking a cup from V60 now after brewing this. The dosage details are: 3.9 Jx Pro rotations, 16.3g powder, 272g water and got 237g liquid. I used Mark’s method, 30g every 30s pouring in circles. The each pour lasted 8-11s. The last pour was at the centre. The total time was 5:01 mins. The cup was very clean, light, very smooth, full of citrus flavours and sweet citrus notes, which are Bergamot orange. As a result, there is a little bit of fruity bitterness, which also creeps in disturbing what is otherwise a good bag. I am therefore not a great fan of this bag. If one is brewing this exclusively or drinking it as a long black, it is good as long as one is aware of the tiny fruity bitter aftertaste. It won’t cut with milk! We buy beans, which can be a very good milk-based coffee and also pull a nice brew. I don’t think I will buy this bag again. It is not for us. It was good buy considering I paid about £23 for a KG vs the full price of £33 and has a cup score of 87.25. If you want to buy, please try a smaller bag and see if this is for you.

I do enjoy a V60 from time to time as well.

@"DavecUK"#p15221 How clean, easy and very good the cup has become, thanks to a lot of hard work and contributions by @"MWJB"#139 and Hoffman. I don’t even have to wonder what my grind size is. Just start with the same settings and a few clicks change are all required.

Blackcat El Salvador Los Luchadores with a cup score of 86.5 Mark’s method. 16.4g, 275g water, 4:44 mins, 242g liquid. Cranberry and chocolate after taste for me. Very nice black coffee.

@"MWJB"#139 Thanks to all your research work on various brew types and Hoffman’s on V60, the pour overs have become easier. It’s very difficult to get the brews wrong. Many thanks mate!

Thanks & you're most welcome :-) It warms my heart to see folk getting pleasing brews. When I first started making brewed coffee, pour over seemed seemed unfathomable, driven by luck/beneficial spirits and I, like many others, sought 'safety' in immersion brews, where you could at least dictate brew time & not be reliant on things outside of your control like flow rate. But, as I built a better understanding, I realised that pour over is certainly as predictable & repeatable as any brew method, reasonably quick too. Of course, I still enjoy immersions, but 95% (just a guess) of my brews are pour overs. Sure, I come a little unstuck every now & then, but usually due to trying a new regime/brew weight/grinder or setting.

Can imagine how hard the journey to where you are now would have been. May have taken you months, if not years, of dedicated research and hard work to achieve the expected outcome. Minions like us can now use your template and make a damn good coffee. The beauty is I haven’t seen the need to change my grind settings for different beans. 😊 It hardly requires any major adjustments except a click or two on either side. > @"MWJB"#p16943 Of course, I still enjoy immersions, but 95% (just a guess) of my brews are pour overs. Sure, I come a little unstuck every now & then, but usually due to trying a new regime/brew weight/grinder or setting. We hardly take out our Indian (immersion filter), unless some one gifts a bag of ground coffee. 😂 Many thanks and best of luck for keep pushing the boundaries. Please do post regularly so that we get to read and learn from your brewings. I also think you may want to consider sharing your journey so far on this forum. 😊 Cheers mate!

Blackcat’s Ethiopian medium 20.1g, 335g water, Mark’s method, 284g liquid and 6:02 mins in total. Another balanced, fruity and sweet cup; had a tiny lingering orange bitterness after taste, which I think is the impact of the orange peel. I am grinding coarser than I normally would. I brewed this coffee for the first time. Perhaps, I will grind a tad coarser next time. Clever would be interesting, although I doubt it would make a difference to the cup. https://i.imgur.com/aCaNR9W.jpg Edit : Please ignore the espresso shot.

**Django Santa Ana** Brewed 16g on 270g of boiling water using Marks method. Got 231.3g liquid. The blueberry, mild sweet blackberry and vanilla taste come out clearly. Considering I ground this at the lower end of the pour over range at 3.6 turns on my grinder, it did produce a slight raw fruit bitter after taste; the cup was very good though. There were no silts, although the mild bitterness call for a coarse grind; I wondered if the water was too hot >100C that resulted in bitterness. Perhaps, I will grind at the normal setting of 3.8-3.9 and see. https://imgur.com/a/c4uOhlz

@"MWJB"#139 Given the tasting notes (blueberry, blackberry, vanilla), I thought the bitterness seeps through the grind size. Considering the other person also got it but only at the first sip, could you explain how does it creep in? I can understand notes like Rhubarb, fruit peel, dark chocolate, etc., producing the (sweet) bitterness. I wonder if Anaerobic natural process is contributing to the tiny bitterness. It is tiny sweet bitter. I felt it in the espresso as well. IMO, it doesn’t alter the taste profile, although does brighten up the coffee a bit. Thx mate!

If it's around the first 2 sips and a generic bitterness, it's likely fine particles suspended at the surface of the brew. Sometimes this just comes with the territory and I don't worry too much if the rest of the cup tastes OK. If it isdtracting from your enjoyment & happening all the time, grind a tad coarser and/or tray and agitate less. To me sweet & bitter tend to be poles apart, I understand a mix, but I'm not sure I grasp sweet bitterness?

V60

MWJB

LMSC I always start brewing straight after the kettle clicks off boil.

LMSC

MWJB kettle clicks off boil.

Ours is a stove top! 😊

LMSC

Brewed 20g, 70g/l, and took the kettle off at about 93. The bitterness had reduced but won’t go. I may perhaps brew at 65g/l or grind a few clicks coarser and see. I would let my taste score sit at 7!

I also pulled a shot this morning on the Evo; like Clever and V60, the bitter taste (not medicinal) remains in place irrespective of the group and brew temps and the grind size!

Edit :

Reminds me of some struggling to properly dial in Santa Ana!

MWJB

LMSC You’re making the assumption that it isn’t dialled in.

3 tried & tested brew methods hasn’t shaken it, still worth tinkering but not looking promising.

LMSC

MWJB Can’t disagree. I have seen the V60 and Clever hardly requiring any dialling in. The first brew is often the sweet spot, except either I aim to go a little on the left of the grind size to see where it takes me or adjust the brew ratio. The espresso may require a couple of more tries at least.

Overall, I have found the beans generally do not require more than 2-3 clicks from the default grind size.

You have made the filter workflow so much easier! Thx! 😊

LMSC

Blackcat Nicaragua

Brewed this for my morning coffee.

It had descriptions of great filter coffee and zippy edge to espresso. I thought this should be interesting to try. I literally interpreted the zippy as bright and considering the emphasis on filter as well, I had assumed it’s going to be light / medium light! As some one said, never assume! :-)

Brewed 20.6g, 316.6g water and got 276.6g liquid. The ripe blueberry aroma greets upon opening the bag. Not sure, there were any cherry, but the fruity flavour and acidity were blueberry all the way to the finish.

Despite all these good aspects, I am not sure I liked this much. I would peg it at 6. At default grind settings, there were no silts, it was not harsh, but it had a persistent tart taste throughout (under extraction). I think this is what spoiled the cup. I would grind finer (?) and/or let the water boil fully before taking the kettle off the hob.

Photo was taken in natural light

MWJB

LMSC Do your V60s at this grind and brew size often under-extract?

Why do you not leave the kettle to boil?

LMSC

MWJB Do your V60s at this grind and brew size often under-extract?

I don’t think so; I believe the cup is generally fine. However, there are instances, where ambiguity could kick-in.

For example, if the notes mention candied orange peel, Bergamot orange, I would expect the flavour to retain the characteristics of a slight bitterness or tartness. These are not unpleasant. I won’t consider this as under-extraction
The last two brews have been challenging, tbh. The Parasio - I can’t rid the slight bitterness across the board. I could tweak and grind coarser. I think it is a losing battle
Today’s is the first dial of Nicaragua at the default setting. It is a medium dark and I started at the default grind size, which is almost at the top of the pour over setting. Tbh, I was expecting the cup to show some what bitter characteristics, given the roast type. I was surprised it was tart, which was noticeable and not unpleasant by any significant margin.

Unfortunately, I can’t measure the extraction! I do need to get a VST, which is ideal but priorities like an electric grinder…..😊

MWJB Why do you not leave the kettle to boil?

The stove top gooseneck kettle has 90-96 as ideal points. I often pull the kettle out at the middle of the range. Perhaps, I should allow it boil and take the kettle out. I can clearly hear the water boiling when the water typically reaches the 98-100C mark. Perhaps, my ears are dodgy 😂

MWJB

If brews are extracting OK at the same grind, brew size & regime with other coffees, it’s unlikely there is a sudden swing with this coffee.

When you pour 100C water in a drip brewer you are likely to be brewing in the early 90s, ending late 80s. The recommendation to “brew” at 92-94C was based on the offset you get with boiling water at the start.

LMSC

MWJB If brews are extracting OK at the same grind, brew size & regime with other coffees, it’s unlikely there is a sudden swing with this coffee.

I do believe the brews are fine most of the time. Perhaps, the last but one is an exception, while the Nicaragua requires some grind size adjustment. I will take a look tomorrow. Would you suggest tightening the grind to see if the tart extraction goes away please ?

MWJB . The recommendation to “brew” at 92-94C was based on the offset you get with boiling water at the start.

🤦‍♂️

MWJB

LMSC I do believe the brews are fine most of the time. Perhaps, the last but one is an exception, while the Nicaragua requires some grind size adjustment. I will take a look tomorrow. Would you suggest tightening the grind to see if the tart extraction goes away please ?

I would only suggest tightening the grind if it was definitely extraction related, always worth a try, but I’m at a loss why a coffee would dramatically drop out of the normal range. Usually, under-extracted brews are a little tangy (maybe like tamarind) and oily/cloying. I have only had a sharp tartness a couple of times and suspect those were an under-developed roast.

LMSC

MWJB I’m at a loss why a coffee would dramatically drop out of the normal range.

Exactly. I can’t explain why would the last 2 bags behave differently.

The first one had seen a few tries straight from boiling to 93C. The roaster said I am over extracting the filter at those temperatures. I respectfully differed with him on that coffee.

I would give the benefit of doubt to the hot water in the second case. I will brew at the same grind size and ratio, but let the water boil. I will see what happens before adjusting the grind size.

Thx for your thoughts and recommendations always. Cheers mate! 🙏🏽

PortafilterProcrastinator

@MWJB - when you refer to oily as a potential sign of under extraction, are you taking about more than just oils on the surface of the coffee?

I’m still struggling to find the ‘sweet spot’ on my F47.

Do you use the rate the water drains as an indicator at all?

I’m up at 4/6 which I think is under extracted, but lower than that and the water isn’t draining well between pours. Sub 4 seems too fine - lots of standing water. (This is using 18g coffee, 33g pours @ 30s int to 270g)

MWJB

PortafilterProcrastinator Not visible oils, more the texture/mouthfeel of the drink. It feels stickier/oilier in the mouth.

Never use the time that the water drains as a guide, this will lead to inconsistent cups and unnecessary faffing. The pour timings are the thing to concentrate on and the effect that grind setting has on the flavour.

That said, my brews averaged 3:56 to dry bed (+/-10s)

Sorry, what is “4/6”?

Can you make a video of the brew?

LMSC

MWJB brews averaged 3:56 to dry bed

Is that for your usual 13.8g coffee powder please ? Thx

PortafilterProcrastinator

MWJB Thank you. That’s really helpful.

Sorry - on my F47, that’s 4 full rotations from flush burr and then to 6 (out of 12).

I tried one at 3 full rotations this afternoon and it was bad. Bitter, muddy.

I might get a chance to do a video next week some time, but it isn’t easy with the kids around - to much noise!

MWJB

LMSC No, just for 18g:270g 33g poured every 30s.

LMSC

PortafilterProcrastinator The grinders are not comparable; however, the sweet spot on my hand grinder is 3 rotations and 36 out of 40 clicks — 40 clicks make a full rotation. My total drain time would be normally 4:40 mins for 18g dose.

PortafilterProcrastinator

LMSC Agreed - but always appreciate people chipping in.

This is why I find grind references so difficult. Particularly when any grinders I’ve had with method indicators on (espresso/ pur over/ drip) never seem to line up with that I end up using (even the niche).

I do seem to be in a bit of a fog at the moment with all my brew methods. Internal barometer is off - never quite sure if things taste ‘good’. Is it good enough on balance? Do i actually like it? Where are the defects (if they are indeed that) coming from, bean, method or other brew parameter.

Exacerbated by not having enough time to experiment leisurely (I.e. not squeezing it in between other things)

JHCCoffee

LMSC The grinders are not comparable; however, the sweet spot on my hand grinder is 3 rotations and 36 out of 40 clicks — 40 clicks make a full rotation. My total drain time would be normally 4:40 mins for 18g dose

Just curious what hand grinder you use. This sounds like an 1ZPresso JMax.

LMSC

PortafilterProcrastinator Internal barometer is off

Hope it is not Covid related. The reason I ask : My wife and I had covid 3 months ago. She suffered the most compared to self. There were no loss of smell or taste.

But, strangely, our tastes have changed some what after this. She used to prefer less spices (chilly or paprika powders), while I was the opposite.

After Covid, the food, which would often find it spicier isn’t for her anymore; and, I am finding them too spicy to eat.

PortafilterProcrastinator Do i actually like it? Where are the defects

Try and get the beans you liked them before and go from there.

It just reminds me of the last two bags that did not fit on the brew cycle including espresso. Considering the recent two instances, although we are currently enjoying the Blackcat’s Rwandan and Ethiopian as espressos, flat whites and Americanos, I haven’t brewed them on V60 and Clever. Both are not on the lighter side.

MWJB

PortafilterProcrastinator This is why I find grind references so difficult. Particularly when any grinders I’ve had with method indicators on (espresso/ pur over/ drip) never seem to line up with that I end up using (even the niche).

The best way to confirm grind references for brewed is by sifting a sample with a Kruve, or other sieve of a known mesh size, like a ASTM/ISO 600um (a bit pricey even in 3″ size).

PortafilterProcrastinator

LMSC I hope not and don’t think so. As far as I’m aware I’ve not had COVID again since Februray 22.

I’ve got to the point where I’m constantly doubting myself, so getting myself out the hole is going to be hard.

If still available, I will get some more Santa Ana in a week or so (accounting for rest time) as I will hopefully recall that taste. It is a good suggestion, thanks.

MWJB Thanks - that is very tempting and as you say, the best way to compare across grinders. I can only imagine the reaction I’d get if I buy one and explain what I’m doing.

I note that says it meets ‘national standards’ and not ISO - clearly given the price - so wonder what the potential variance is in mesh gap size.

I’ll do a bit more research.

Do you use your seive to match up grinders for the same brew method, and then refine from there? I’m assuming that the same sieve result from different grinders doesn’t mean the same result in the cup.

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