• Grinders

  • Niche Zero - One Year in Review

I think it is obvious that many ‘content creators’ have (often undisclosed) financial interests and conflicts, and I am sure that the same applies to LH- his ‘admiration’ for some Sage products is conspicuous. Credibility aside, I think that he is a mediocre Youtuber, mainly because of his communication style and poor articulation which makes it difficult for me to enjoy any of his videos (although he seems to have made some progress since he first started uploading content).

Irrespective of that, what I find funny is that he struck a particular nerve here with his Niche review. It is fair to say that many people have a soft spot for the specific grinder, either because it is a British success story and people have been involved in its development, or because they own it (myself included as of last week), or simply because they consider it a great grinder totally worth its money. Not sure that LH would trigger such a debate with any other review..

  • Pav likes this.

I’d say more Joe public and entry level people have the niche so it stands to reason he will get more of a reaction,

But you’d also get a reaction if he did the same saying an ek43 was shite.

I get polished video get good following but it’s all just opinion as every tongue is different

Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

Even hoons coffee has gone like that, getting all the new gadgets.

Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

A few observations after watching LH’s review of DF64.

  • He struggled to recommend the grinder; he did but listed a lot of negatives.

  • As far as the espresso shot is concerned, the shot was probably sour (he said astringent) and under extracted. He was expecting stone fruit notes but got citrus and lemon.

  • He still said it is good for light roast 🤔

  • In a nutshell, it wasn’t a clear endorsement of Solo.

  • He was nevertheless consistent that he, personally, doesn’t prefer Niche.

Cuprajake I believe it’s probably more to do with getting a better “outcome” with the YouTube algorithm’s than presenting a balanced, properly researched review.

It’s why for me most YouTube stuff is infotainment, it’s not common to find much coffee stuff like DaveC’s work which I find far more interesting

    drdre89 summed it up perfectly. To me, the NZ is the best combination of efficiency and effectiveness, the latter being relative to the flavor I’m after.

      I think Lance’s review was fair and honest. The Niche has a good workflow but I’ve always found the filter coffee from it lacks clarity, perfectly usable though.

      Slightly amusing watching people get offended over a product review. There was a similar thread a while back on CFUK about James Hoffmann with the usual ’you can’t trust him because he gets Patreon and YouTube ad money’ etc.

      The only thing I’d add is - just because someone isn’t paid for a review, doesn’t mean they’re free of ‘bias’. I’d take every review whether it’s done by a YouTuber/blogger/home enthusiast on it’s own merits.

      I’d say that’s true with most if not all social media. It’s there in the end to separate us from our cash😂

      Never got why people get so defensive over something they have bought, if I spend good money and something is shite, I will let you know

      Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

      I haven’t owned Niche. Generally, it’s reported it’s not great for filter or light roast. The latter is more of flat vs conical in the clarity vs body (texture) space.

      @MWJB, you have been using Niche for a long time mostly for brews/pour overs. I also think you drink light to medium. Could you share your experience and how you see the NZ in the case light, medium light, clarity vs body, …. please ?

      We all value your experience and extensive knowledge. Please chip in. Thx

      • MWJB replied to this.

        I have the Niche for 2 years now and with the ACS EVO Leva you can use light roasts as much as you want… just tweaking the PIDs. Also I think Niche grinder is awesome for lever machines, since it’s fines helps with the extraction style lever pressure profiles applies and the higher water flow that usually they have.

        For pour over, otherwise I find it always a passable grinder… clogging filters most of the time (used many different brands, with similar results).

        Recently got a Fellow Ode and got Gorilla burrs in it, and V60 are next level. Still with some good sweetness and body, but clearer and more balanced… (and an obvious improvement on the clogging thing).

        Also tried some espresso with the Ode and the Gorillas, and being also really tasty and notes appearing more clear… Niche still wins.

        So, all of this is also to point out that grinders also have to be paired with a machine, and maybe pulling a standard shot with a Sage is not the best for the type of grinding a Niche delivers. I’m pretty sure playing with that Sage PiD, preinfusion parameters and some pro-barista mambo-jambo you can have a really good light roast espresso.

        LMSC

        I use my Niche mostly, yes I drink light roasts only (or would if I could be sure what I ordered was actually light).

        I have no idea what most people are talking about in these ‘grinder wars’.

        I also have no idea why Lance previously said the Niche was better than a Sette in taste testing, but now says that the Sette has a narrower distribution. Either distribution is not the be all & end all, or he just did a complete 180.

        My Sette made nice espresso, but was not acceptable for filter. Measurably, it had the widest distribution I have seen from any grinder I have owned (this didn’t make it bad in terms of intended purpose, I would no doubt still be using it… if it worked & I bought it a year after getting my Niche).

        I tried the Niche prototype, I had previously sold my Rocky because it was too needy in terms of purging & sweeping. I had no intention of ever owning another electric grinder again but the Niche offered the high dose consistency (with no puffing of bellows, nor sweeping) of a hand grinder without the arm work (Mark Prince AKA Coffeegeek defined a “zero retention grinder” as a grinder that could dose to within +/-0.5g, the Niche does this, it is not the only one, but there weren’t a lot of others in electric grinders when it was conceived).

        The hype, for me, was simply that here is a grinder that grinds…you weigh the beans in, you get a consistent dose out, you don’t think about/fret over what your grinder is doing…you just get on with making coffee. I don’t recall any hype/overhype at the time it came out (outside of freshness/consistency of dose & retention claims), just an easy to use grinder with commercial burrs at ⅓ the price of its closest relative.

        The grind consistency of the Niche Zero is perfectly normal, not poor, nor wide/abnormal/bad.

          16 days later

          another semi negative review from April coffee - saying it produces a lot of fines and uneven particle size. Though he never says compared to what exactly.

          • MWJB replied to this.

            Before I waste any of my life watching these ‘reviews’ can somebody answer one question:

            Did they dial the grinder in the produce the best shot, or did they arbitrarily decide on a ratio and adjust the grinder to produce it in a certain time, and then decide to make some judgement about the grinder?

            April? Seriously, if looks like Clickbait and smells like Clickbait…..

            Like you, there are so many questions I’d ask if I could be bothered throwing away the time just to be more irritated by another YouTuber bellend.

            I’ve owned my Niche well over a year now and although perfect it ain’t, for the price point and fitness of purpose it’s still to be beaten IMHO. I’m not blind to the trade-offs and that’s why I have more than one grinder

            gotters

            Ignore anyone who talks about “fines” & “uneven particle size”.

            You can only consider fines relative to the rest of the distribution, which no one shows any interest in. The best way to reduce the small bits in your grind is to go coarser. You don’t have any way of steering the distribution when adjusting a grinder, you can only go coarser/finer.

            The Niche isn’t magic, it doesn’t do anything hitherto unseen in terms of grind distribution, it is typical/normal…as most grinders are.

            A normal grind distribution of say 500um average will have a couple of % over 1mm, a couple of % under 250um. That would be considered ‘even’ in grinder terms…despite that to the eye/measurement is not even and no burr grinder is. Some are tighter (EK, Baratza Vario/Forte with Ditting burrs, OE Apex), some are wider (Porlex, De Longhi KG79, Zassenhaus grinders with wobbly burrs) but in brew quality is not so clear cut.

            He is right though that the standard grind scale markings are too fine at 50 for a lot of drip brewing. Easily fixed with another dot.

            But you shouldn’t be setting a grinder by the average grind size anyway, grind based on the smaller end that gives you the extractions you want, that taste good. If this is coarser than another grinder, slow down the pour.

                MWJB He is right though that the standard grind scale markings are too fine at 50 for a lot of drip brewing. Easily fixed with another dot.

                This may be a stupid question (please ignore me, or tell me if it is): isn’t the fact that he needs to grind so far outside of the scale on the Niche means he is using the grinder out of it’s intended (or optimal) range? Should every grinder be able to optimally perform for every grind size? Could it not be that Niche was developed with a certain range of grind sizes in mind and that it will therefore not be at it’s best if used outside of this range? (again, this might be a stupid question, but this was my thought when I watched the video).

                • MWJB replied to this.

                    Doram

                    The markings on the Niche are in the wrong place for brewed/drip, so the normal drip range is outside the markings.

                    It’s not a grind/grinder issue, it’s a paint issue.

                    Patrik Rolf says he intends to grind at 730-750um average (though I’m not sure that’s what he’s getting, but let’s go with that), OK fair enough, but US drip grind has been between 800 & 850um for over 70years, this is about 92-94 on the Niche and about 32-34 on a Wilfa Flat (well within it’s marked range, as it is on any of my grinders I brew drip with).

                    SCAA/Agtron cupping grind is around 700um (you can still use this for drip), again still way outside the Niche markings.

                    If a grinder is normal and it can go fine enough for espresso, it will still be normal in the drip range. Its optimal setting for a brew method, will still be optimal at the different settings, that suit that method.

                    I do wonder whether the markings have driven some to brew at finer settings than they normally would, hence allegations (unfounded) of “lot’s of fines”.

                        MWJB That’s very interesting mate! I do know you have been grinding outside the Niche range; if my memory serves right, you grind in the 90s, unless I read somewhere in your thread as 60s.

                        I haven’t seen anyone mentioning this with such a conviction about the brew range. After yours’, the guy on the video mentions gringing outside the range. Not sure, JH mentioned it anywhere. So, most of the Niche critics do not know the actual grind size for brews/pour overs is outside the range. Perhaps, they didn’t try. That’s hard to believe, or is it?

                        I also do not think the Niche would not be aware of this. I’m sure they do. The only thing is why they haven’t tried to correct it. They could have corrected in the last 5 years. I do not want to speculate. Perhaps, there is a reason. If it is a case of making changes to the marking, they could / should have fixed it IMO. Because, it helps iron out the ambiguities and helps the community.

                        In a nutshell, I’m not surprised you don’t find any issue with Niche as far as brewing / pot over is concerned. Thx

                        • MWJB replied to this.

                            LMSC

                            Yeah, I’m mostly at 94 for pour over, though I have been as low as the high 50’s for faster pour regimes.

                            • LMSC replied to this.