ZPM - Kickstarter failure to espresso revolution - JH video

LMSC

James Hoffman’s video published 9 days ago!

Please watch, in case if you haven’t.

FadedFrontiers

Interesting seeing a tour of the machine, although that interview with Buckman seems to only give a partial picture. I’d guess that ZPM had a far greater influence on him than he leads on, I mean the beta machine even sounds identical to a Decent when pulling a shot…

LMSC

They would have bought the IP from ZPM folks and went from there.

What I found interesting and a little bizzare is the video on ZPM popping up almost after 7 years.

FadedFrontiers

LMSC yeah totally, but it’s misleading in the way he suggests how he started from scratch with the Decent and while he could choose to use their IP if he wanted to after buying them out, he went his own way instead. Clever PR given how without the failure of ZPM, I can’t imagine Decent being a thing.

DavecUK

FadedFrontiers In fairness to him, it still had to be done successfully, which was a herculean effort in marketing that paid off. He now seemingly has people queueing up with 4K+ amounts of cash for a machine that…..

I’ve said enough.

Dusk

DavecUK

Do tell, I’d be interested to know your opinion on how they compare to other top end machines. It’s easy to get caught up in hype and marketing but unless you can use a variety of these machines then you just won’t know and have to take a punt on what you decide to purchase.

The Decent seems like an interesting idea to me but looks too electronic focussed for my liking, I prefer something a bit more mechanical.

tompoland

Not sure there is anything to directly compare them to. It’s a heck of an achievement to create the Decent and make a commercial success of it, especially going direct to market regardless of how much IP he used or did not use from the failed KS project. It’s an interesting but moot point; you and I will never know.

Perhaps the fact that the Decent has no direct competitors (at least that I am aware of) means he can charge a premium.

As a side note, some proud owners have no doubt hyped the Decent (as proud and pleased owners of anything the world over are want to do) but I’d say that Buckman is definitely not one to hype his products. Incredibly laid back, budget style videos and very rare lapses into “worlds best” type claims. If anything his stance is very anti-slick marketing.

In terms of whether or not it’s too expensive for what it is, my Dad was fond of saying that a thing is worth what someone will pay for it. And more than 5,000 people to date have paid a pretty penny for it.

Last thought: an expert can work miracles with the most basic of espresso machines. The Decent puts advanced options into the otherwise bumbling and unskilled hands of newbies like myself.

LMSC

tompoland an expert can work miracles with the most basic of espresso machines.

$400 vs $30K

dfk41

tompoland There have been several knowlegeable people owned Decents and moved them on. Once again, a closed forum where you can supress anything you like. Brilliant machine in theory but for me, it is some very clever software linked to a low budget (especially in looks and feel) espresso machine. Has anyone yet actually achieved this legendary lever profile shot?

DavecUK

LMSC I wonder what they are selling…..

Ah….training courses!

FadedFrontiers

Definitely, I’m in no way diminishing the achievement of him and Decent, if anything is the moral from this story it’s that you can have a good idea but that doesn’t mean it will be a successful one without a lot of effort and resources (and higher pricing).

I just naively expected him to give a little more acknowledgement of Decent’s roots in this machine given the very obvious parallels.

Wonder if there will be a competitor to Decent in the foreseeable future. Whenever a machine comes out with a screen and anything more advanced than PID and preinfusion control it gets talked about as a rival but they never seem to provide quite the level of tweaking.

LMSC

dfk41 Brilliant machine in theory but for me, it is some very clever software linked to a low budget (especially in looks and feel) espresso machine.

This is what I really like about you David! Frank and honest about what you think about something subtly concealing vast knowledge about coffee. Some of us including self are like you in our respective field of expertise; it works well most of the time and most of the junta respect you for that. But, it can raise a few unpleasant and unfriendly eyebrows, although I don’t lose my sleep over those few! 😊

tompoland

dfk41 There have been several knowlegeable people owned Decents and moved them on. Once again, a closed forum where you can supress anything you like

Like others, I admire your directness and transparency. On these two points you may be a tad wide of the mark though.

Knowledgeable people have moved their Mercedes, Slayers and Lear Jets on too. Not sure it proves much. And John Weiss (WDT), James Hoffman , Scott Rao and many other luminaries seem to have kept theirs. Not to mention what appears to be well over 5,000 happy Decent-owning plebs like me.

There are some who suspect that the Decent Diaspora is a closed community so that voices of dissent can be muffled. I have not seen any evidence of that. By contrast I have seen and experienced heavy handed editing or deletion of posts on the likes of HB and the Kafatek forums, but not on Decent’s Diaspora. In fact, Buckman gave his blessing to a polite request from one Decent owner to start an independent Decent forum on Discord. It is beyond his editing control and thrives. Buckman feels that there are plenty of opportunities for inquires, comments etc from non owners on public forms and the several thousand posts on HB and CoffeeSnobs would suggest that he’s correct. It’s pretty hard to muzzle complaints or unhappiness on the interweb thingy. If anything, social media amplifies dissent and I’m not reading a lot in the way of unhappy campers when it comes to Decent.

Not that you are necessarily suggesting that there is a strategy to muzzle dissenters but I would hate it for others to get the wrong idea about Buckman’s motivations. After all, he is a decent bloke 😃

PortafilterProcrastinator

The video was an interesting history lesson for someone who has only been ‘into’ coffee for a few years. The fact that this has all been going on for so long (the tech drive and the value drive) was as surprising as it was unsurprising.

I can’t pass any comment on the Decent as I’ve never paid it much attention (due to price).

MediumRoastSteam

The Decent coffee machine, whatever peoples opinions are, is a success story, simple as that.

I never seen one or used one. But that’s not the point. When you have a product that is fully understood and transparent (see forum threads), fully supported, with a community behind it, and there are people queuing out of the door with heaps of cash to get theirs hands on, one could certainly say the Decent folks nailed, at least from a business point of view.

Same as the the Niche Zero grinder. They nailed it. There are people out there who hate it, but again that’s not the point. From a business point of view.

dfk41

tompoland Newtons law matey…..can a non Decent owning person gain access to the Diaspora? I ask that because I was under the impression, be it right or wrong, that it was only open to owners. If I am wrong, then I apologise in advance.

Cuprajake

I love the idea of the decent. Many a time has my finger hovered over buying one, be it new or old but the noise just reminds me of this

tompoland

No you are not wronng and there is no apology required. My post was explaining Buckmans’ reason for having both open and closed forums. I referred to the fact that Diaspora is a closed community and explained Buckmans reasons for having both a closed commuinty as well as being supportive of many open communities. I really can’t think or a more transparent espresso machine manufactuer and supporter of diverse opinions than John Buckman. A short review of his posts on Coffee Snobs alone demonstrates his willingness to own errors, highlight mistakes and ask for feedback.