[Hi @"Rob1"#171 - I am copying your quote below to a new thread here, because I think it deserves its own place and didn't want to divert the "Lelit reliability" thread where I found it:] ***@"Rob1"#p19586 Ashbeck isn’t ideal… Better off just getting a zero water jug and remineralising with bicarb.*** When you say Ashbeck isn't ideal, what exactly do you mean (for espresso)? Is it because it will scale? Or because the coffee won't taste great? Or because it's bad for the environment? Or something else? I think that people are drawn to Ashbeck because it's an easy solution for their machines. Having to remineralise RO or Zero water is a barrier for some. We might do it in the future, but not ready to make the leap just yet. I am personally in that camp, so looking for an easy "ready made" solution that I don't have to think too much about. I understand Ashbeck is a compromise (what isn't?), but what I don't know is what sort of compromise it is. What I am interested to know isn't the chemical formulation that is beyond my understanding (too much X, not enough Y, low PH etc.), but rather the effect it has (e.g. - the machine will scale and might need descaling once a year; or - the coffee will taste X or will miss Y because the balance of mineral is too Z; or - the boiler might corrode, etc.). I Would really appreciate it if this is something you could explain for those of us who find the water issue too complicated and overwhelming. Finally, is there a better, easy, ready made compromise, that will not cost a fortune, doesn't take up counter space and electricity, will not involve remineralisation and will not kill a machine too quickly, providing we are willing to accept it's a compromise on taste? (I am asking a lot, I know, lol). If we do go for a Zero water jug + bicarb as you suggested above, what will be gained compared to Ashbeck (in terms of scaling and taste?). Sorry if this is asking too much and thank you for all the insights and for sharing your vast knowledge!

> @"Doram"#p19609 Having to remineralise RO or Zero water is a barrier for some. We might do it in the future, but not ready to make the leap just yet. Don’t let this be an issue. It’s a very simple thing to do, honestly. Takes seconds! > @"Doram"#p19609 If we do go for a Zero water jug + bicarb as you suggested above This is a question I’m asking myself. I’m very keen on the Skuma. It does RO water, remineralises on the fly with a concentrate you could even make yourself, dispenses hot water, the filter lasts 1 year, and is able to output in excess of 450L with moderate hard water (that’s less than 300ppm) going up to 700L with less hard water, at a cost of £35. Those are claims made in the Skuma thread. The price is also very competitive. As much as I’d like one, I’m somewhat skeptical as I haven’t seen anyone rather than Skuma themselves talk about the device. So, to me, it’s not yet proven or tested. But if it works as claimed on the long run, it’s really cost effective. Compare that to Zero water, where two cartridges cost approx. £15 each would produce approx. 60L of water and would need to be replaced once a month. I know someone here said they keep theirs for 3 months, against manufacturer recommendation and it’s been fine. It we know what the Zero water delivers as it’s been out there for a while.

I too find this topic a little overwhelming and would appreciate the pros and cons laid out in layman’s terms. I have been using a mix of 50:50 Ashbeck and Volvic and understand that I will need a light descale one every 1-2 years based on my usage. Ideally I would go the RO route like many of the experts on this forum seem to have and have been looking at both Skuma and Osmio Zero with interest but countertop space and initial outlay is a factor. The alternative I have been considering is the Zero water jug and remineralisation if that offers better protection for the coffee machine (less frequent descale) and better taste as compared to Ashbeck+Volvic. With each of these options and the benefits laid out would help someone like me pick what is right for them with the understanding of the consequences. Perhaps it is not as simple as that given the detailed discussions I have seen on the subject of water.

> @"Alpesh"#p19611 and better taste as compared to Ashbeck+Volvic. Same here. I’ve been using distilled water for over two years now, exclusively for coffee brewing. The process is inefficient, taking 6 hours to produce 3.5L of water and working out a similar cost to bottled Ashbeck, per litre. However, it doesn’t waste plastic nor water and you could argue it’s “green” providing your electricity comes from renewable sources. But I asked a question in the Skuma thread, asking whether distilled water tastes the same as pure RO water and the answer was No. now, let me tell you, distilled water tastes, errr…. Of nothing apparently, and what you taste is the actual taste of your mouth. Some say it tastes plasticky. It tastes diabolical in tea or in an Americano, making a very flat beverage. It seems so be OK for espresso. So I’m curious to try RO or Zero water, and, technically, on paper, the cost of running the Zero Water would be the same as the cost of running the distiller. I’ve been trying to convince the wife whether we could welcome the Skuma to our home. She said she likes the idea of having filtered hot water on demand, but unfortunately our counter space is at a premium. The plot thickens. On Ashbeck, I heard some say it can corrode the boiler on the wrong run. I never saw evidence of this. It also has a significant amount of chlorides which is not good in a service boiler environment, apparently.

> @"MediumRoastSteam"#p19620 counter space is at a premium Utility room?

@"LMSC"#p19621 our house has a utility room, but it’s a converted garage. Although it’s attached to the house, one needs to physically leave the house through the back door first. I don’t see the other members of the household doing that when the kitchen tap is more accessible.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p19622 That’s a shame! Are you not able to squeeze a small side table or install a small cabinet or an open shelf above the kitchen worktop to release some space? I am sure you would have done that, if possible.

> @"Doram"#p19609 When you say Ashbeck isn’t ideal, what exactly do you mean (for espresso)? Is it because it will scale? Or because the coffee won’t taste great? Or because it’s bad for the environment? Or something else? > > I think that people are drawn to Ashbeck because it’s an easy solution for their machines. Having to remineralise RO or Zero water is a barrier for some. Ashbeck is low in alkalinity and pH, it errs towards corrosive. I don't like the taste of coffee brewed with it, but others might. At the end of the day boiler water recommendations are not specifically focused on taste, you can still make bad cups with any water, you might even like the taste of less than ideal water. They're aimed at protecting your boilers. You could buy an RO system that produces water with higher alkalinity than Ashbeck, so the idea that you only have to remineralise RO, or Zero jug water is a fallacy. Ashbeck is easy, sure, but it's not a solution. The boiler recommendations are essentially very simple, aim for an alkalinity of 40-60mg/L as CaCO3 (Ashbeck is about 20mg/L). Bottled water options are Waitrose Essentials Lockhills, Speyside Glenlivet (not easy to find these days, though again I didn't like the taste)…Volvic & Acqua Panna are 2nd tier bottled water choices (high in alkalinity/bicarbonate). The first step to working out what you need to do is to check the in depth water analysis based on your postcode, with your water supplier, hardness will be easy to find, but you also want to know alkalinity/bicarbonate/temporary hardness (most critical).

> @"MediumRoastSteam"#p19610 Zero water, where two cartridges cost approx. £15 each would produce approx. 60L of water and would need to be replaced once a month. I've been through all the Zero Water UK site, and I can't find a recommendation to change the filter once a month. There is this: [upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/epAbBSF.png] whether that's credible is a different story, but mine has been running for six weeks and there is absolutely no smell or colour to the water/filter. The NSF certification gives 45 (US) gallons (i.e. 170 litres) as expected life of a filter element, but the certification is based on heavy metals and dissolved gases removal (which is likely to happen in the 'carbon' part of the filter), not softening/ion removal. Zero say that the ion-stripping resin is sufficient for 18,000 mg of ion removal, which would make that part of the filter last 170 litres with \~100 mg/l of ionic content (moderately soft water). My unfiltered supply is between 300 and 400 (Thames Water values), so I fully expect to replace the filter every 30-40 litres. At current rates of use, that means every 2-3 months (espresso and Turkish only; happy to continue with my inline filter and softener for other purposes - we don't drink much tea, either). My running cost is very low…and the cost per cartridge goes down even further if one buys packs of 4 - or 8. I'm posting this as a different use case - just saying that an RO system is not necessarily the cheapest for everyone.

> @"MWJB"#p19635 You could buy an RO system that produces water with higher alkalinity than Ashbeck, so the idea that you only have to remineralise RO, or Zero jug water is a fallacy. The Ozmio Zero’s alkalinity from its’ pure RO water in our case is typically around 15-20 mg/l. It has a remineralisation filter. The resulting alkalinity is typically around 40–50 mg/l. This is perfect for our boilers. The filter is changed once a year as the unit gets the softened water. The Ashbeck bicarbonate is 25 mg/l. I suppose one will have to prepare a concentrate or add 125 mg/l to a 5L bottle and use that? It is going to be hard weighing up 125 mg even with a jewellery scale ? https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/301227531 The Waitrose lockhills bicarbonate is about 60 mg/l.

Tesco Ashbeck water - why is it not ideal?

simonc

[unknown] I agree using premixed sachets not long term solution and not for those like you who enjoy some chemistry! but for @[deleted] or others just starting out it’s an easier way to do it?

CoyoteOldMan

Maybe. It’s not very difficult, honest! Most if not all coffee aficionados weigh coffee, water, measure timings and spend time dialling in grinders. Weighing two commonly found chemicals (Epsom salt and baking soda - supermarkets stock them) once a month, and using a syringe once or twice a week to measure the addition to a tank is no more difficult - if anything, I’d say it’s significantly easier than dialling in espresso, where we need to check weight, appearance and times all at once!

The other option involves making a US gallon of stuff with a sachet once a week (or thereabouts), then throwing at least 25% of it away… or storing it in the fridge, which is no different from storing concentrates. Otherwise, if one needs to weigh ‘part sachets’, the convenience just goes away.

CardinalBiggles

MWJB That’s interesting. I got a different experience with Ashbeck.

I’m trying to use Ashbeck, mainly as I’m paranoid about scaling atm!

I find it gives a very smooth and gentle coffee. So gentle that the taste might be considered a little bit flat to be honest. It seems to round off/mask some of the subtle notes that I’m used to in certain beans that I know quite well. Or maybe just not bring them forward, in that way that I have been used to. And in Flat Whites the ‘kick’ is definitely reduced. It’s not horrible. But I didn’t sell the kids into slavery to get decent kit to get only ‘acceptable’ coffee out of it. So I’m not sure if I’m going to stay the course with Ashbeck, tbh.

Which is a shame as its cheap, conveniently packaged and local to me.

So I’m joining the queue here to explore alternatives.

I might try the bicarb idea, but generally I don’t really want a lot of messing about, don’t want plumbed in hassle.

I just want a nice coffee from about 5L of water a week that won’t muck up me pipes!

SkumaWater

[unknown] sure I can send you a sample of our Coffee Balance water. Can you share with me your address by email at alex@skumawater.com ?

SkumaWater

Doram Doram sure I can send you a sample of our Coffee Balance water. Can you share with me your address by email at alex@skumawater.com ?

SkumaWater

@Doram sure I can send you a 1 L sample of our Coffee Balance water. Can you share with me your address by email at alex@skumawater.com ?

CardinalBiggles

Sooooooo……

In summary to the OPs request for a simplified & conveninent water paradigm,

Get yourself over to Waitrose and stock up on Essentials water for great taste and no boiler corrosion, keep an eye on the KH over time

or
Stuff a bit of chemical gear into Ashbeck, keep an eye on KH over time.

1 seems fair enough then! That’s my sort of solution.

I just want a nice cup of coffee, but I seem to have bought a Steampunk Chemistry Set!! 😅.

Platypus

I have an old chart I think posted by MWJB about mixing bottled waters, one option being 1 part volvic to 3 parts Lockhills.
Would this be better than Lockhills on it’s own for boiler care or was this geared more towards flavour?
I wonder if Waitrose realise that people buy the Lockhills for coffee machines? Better keep schtum or they’ll rebrand it and double the price!

MWJB

Platypus It’s more an option if you are trying to stretch the water out due to short/sporadic supply. It works out as pretty much the same as Lockhills.

Reasonably low alkalinity lets the acidity shine through in coffee (& other hot drinks), beyond that recommendations are in regards to scaling boiler care only. Flavour preference is subjective and if a boiler wrecking water tasted great with a coffee, I still wouldn’t use it (in my machine anyway). Lockhills is good enough taste-wise, enough to forget about water & focus on the coffee & parameters (more critical).

rivergo1d

I was wondering, for anyone using Waitrose Lockhills, how often a machine should be descaled? I have a Lelit Bianca.

With Ashbeck I descaled my Cherub once a year, though from what I read I could probably have stretched that to once every couple of years.

Ashbeck is shooting up in price and down in availability, so I’m considering Lockhills as an alternative.

MediumRoastSteam

rivergo1d I was wondering, for anyone using Waitrose Lockhills, how often a machine should be descaled? I have a Lelit Bianca.

I had a Profitec 700 many moons ago, and ran on Ashbeck. I never descaled and ended up selling it after 2 years or so.

But, I did notice that, overtime, the machine started making different sounds, taking longer to heat up, etc.

reality is…. In the service (steam) boiler, it will scale in a matter of days. Not as much in the brew boiler, as temperatures are lower - hence why the E61 mushroom looked ok after 18 months.

As we now know a lot more about water than back in the day, thanks to a few members here, I think using bottled water such as Ashbeck or Lockhills is now dated. You’d be better of using ZeroWater, distilled or RO water and remineralise yourself. It’s very easy and simple, with the bonus you’ll never need to worry about descaling your machine again.

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