I'm picking up here on an idea that floated in the "[Why is Tesco Ashbeck water not ideal](https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/835-tesco-ashbeck-water-why-is-it-not-ideal)" thread: I am wondering if there is a benefit in using two different waters for an HX machine: softer for the main/steam part of the boiler, more alkalinity for the HX/coffee part (this might be relevant for dual boiler as well - I don't know because I don't have one) This is easy for me to do: after draining the boiler (I do this once every three weeks) I can fill it with soft water (e.g. Ashbeck, or RO water for those who have it). Once the boiler is full, I can move to use water with more alkalinity (e.g. Ashbeck + bicarb of soda, or Lockhills, or remineraliser RO water for those who have it). Surely as steam is drawn the steam part of the HX boiler will refill as needed with the harder water, but theoretically starting with a boiler full of softer water should help to keep scale down? But - as the harder water will now go to the group, pipes, valves of the machine etc. - I am not sure if there is any benefit to this approach or not. What do you think @"DavecUK"#1, @"MWJB"#139, @"Rob1"#171 (and anyone else who knows or has an opinion :)).

@"Doram"#p19745 I would think it's best to avoid water that will scale, solenoids 1 way valves etc.. can all be a real PITA to sort. A few mornings ago I came to my espresso machine in the morning, the tank was fuller than it should have been and there was a hell of a void in the brew boiler, not enough to pop the element, but I'm glad I didn't leave it unused any longer. The cause, some dirt in the 1 way valve, but it could have just as easily been scale, and they can scale literally in months. Your approach will reduce the scaling problem and on a vibration pump machine the pump itself acts as a valve (sometimes as an extra valve)…but it sounds like a lot to remember and there is still some potential for problems.

> @"DavecUK"#p19749 I would think it’s best to avoid water that will scale, solenoids 1 way valves etc.. can all be a real PITA to sort. A few mornings ago I came to my espresso machine in the morning, the tank was fuller than it should have been and there was a hell of a void in the brew boiler, not enough to pop the element, but I’m glad I didn’t leave it unused any longer. The cause, some dirt in the 1 way valve, but it could have just as easily been scale, and they can scale literally in months. > > Your approach will reduce the scaling problem and on a vibration pump machine the pump itself acts as a valve (sometimes as an extra valve)…but it sounds like a lot to remember and there is still some potential for problems. Just to clarify: I am not thinking of recklessly using hard water (e.g. tap water) for the HX. I am thinking of using water that has just a little more alkalinity for taste (and that therefore might scale a little), and mitigating that risk by first filling the main part of the boiler with softer water.

> @"Doram"#p19745 refill as needed with the harder water, . I do not understand why you want to fill / refill with hard / harder water. - When you say harder waters, is it the tap water or the re-mineralised (sodium / potassium bicarb)? - Are you going refresh with the boiler thru the reservoir or open the top of the boiler, get the water out and inject fresh Ashbeck through a large syringe? - Depending on your definition of harder water, the pipes, etc may get scales quickly - IMO, you are going to use Rob’s way of minimising the risk of scaling and make your coffee simple. It works for him. You can see it will work for you Edit: You have already answered some of the doubts, I have raised.

The Rancilio Silvia Pro has two independent circuits, with independent pumps. The DIY enthusiasts could make a modification to have a partition in the tank and have two different grades of water. https://youtu.be/zBu4lfoJGSw

> @"LMSC"#p19751 When you say harder waters, is it the tap water or the re-mineralised (sodium / potassium bicarb)? > Are you going refresh with the boiler thru the reservoir or open the top of the boiler, get the water out and inject fresh Ashbeck through a large syringe? > Depending on your definition of harder water, the pipes, etc may get scales quickly > IMO, you are going to use Rob’s way of minimising the risk of scaling and make your coffee simple. It works for him. You can see it will work for you. 1. As I said above, I am not thinking of recklessly using hard water. I am thinking of very soft (say Ashbeck) for steam, then remineralised (say Ashbeck + bicarb) for the HX. 2. I am thinking to refresh the water by draining the boiler via the hot water tap, then refreshing by filling the tank with soft water and filling the boiler from it with the pump as normal. No opening of the boiler involved. The question is if there is any benefit in doing the above in term of scaling risk, as the remineralised water will still be circulated in the pipes, valves and group?

Given the frequency of refreshing the boiler with Ashbeck, please check if the approach is cost effective versus, for example, Zero Water Jug. I am consciously not recommending RO — Skuma or Osmio — as they involve an initial outlay. which is worth every penny for some of us. It may not suit every one for cost reasons. Some of the members logic is simple. We spend thousands on machines, grinder and coffee beans. The water is the most critical element and must be given as much importance as anything else. Please take the approach that you are most comfortable with but aim to keep a simple workflow with the water. 😊

> @"Doram"#p19753 if there is any benefit in doing the above in term of scaling risk, as the remineralised water will still be circulated in the pipes, valves and group - Regular refresh means you are not allowing the water that gets additional minerals from steam settle on the boiler. So, you are minimising the risk of scaling. - This is similar to we drawing a small cup of water from the steam boiler after every steam. We will be drawing more water out and more re-mineralised water gets re-filled continuously at our home vs your approach. - Please do test regularly. Hope they make sense! 😊

Yes, it would work. @"Rob1"#171 does this on his dual boiler machine. The question - as always - is cost-benefit. The main cost is (the amount of) faff that is involved with emptying the boiler. If you do that anyway… pretty much zero. The benefit depends on how much you use steam. Also, consider that - depending on the boiler's material - pure DI water can become corrosive for your boiler (as it absorbs CO~2~ from air and it turns acidic). Again, nothing that a bit of bicarbonate can't sort out, but then that increases the faff…

> @"LMSC"#p19754 Given the frequency of refreshing the boiler with Ashbeck, please check if the approach is cost effective versus, for example, Zero Water Jug. > > I am consciously not recommending RO — Skuma or Osmio — as they involve an initial outlay. which is worth every penny for some of us. It may not suit every one for cost reasons. > > Some of the members logic is simple. We spend thousands on machines, grinder and coffee beans. The water is the most critical and must be given as much importance as anything else. Please take the approach that you are most comfortable with but aim to keep a simple workflow with the water. 😊 I am asking about the principal, not specific water. If the principal works, it can be done with any soft water for the steam part, and any remineralised water for the HX. For now I am refreshing once every 3 weeks, but I can change the frequency, or the water I use. Cost of water vs all the rest of the equipment/beans etc. is an interesting question, but maybe we should leave it for a different thread?

> @"CoyoteOldMan"#p19757 The main cost is (the amount of) faff that is involved with emptying the boiler. If you do that anyway… pretty much zero. As you say - I do it anyway. It's zero effort for me to first fill the boiler with pure Ashbeck before using Ashbeck + bicarb thereafter. > @"CoyoteOldMan"#p19757 , consider that - depending on the boiler’s material - pure DI water can become corrosive for your boiler (as it absorbs CO2 from air and it turns acidic). Again, nothing that a bit of bicarbonate can’t sort out, but then that increases the faff… 1. I don't have DI water. I have Ashbeck (for now). 2. My boiler is stainless steel, so I think I have no problem. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Two waters for HX (soft for steam, tasty for coffee) - will it work?

logjames

Doram I’ve been using that technique for nearly a year. Once a month, I purge the steam boiler in my MaraX, through the water tap, and refill with distilled water. The residual water left in the boiler provides enough minerals to the distilled water so the level probe still works. I run tap water here, which is approximately 120-130ppm hardness through a charcoal filter, and the 70l resin filter from Lelit, which I recharge weekly using a salt water bath. I try to monitor any scale build-up by checking the mushroom when I grease the cam and the water tap when I drain the boiler.

I don’t think this solution is 100% scale free, but I haven’t noticed any build-up in the areas I’ve mentioned.

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