I am more a maths and physics guy and hate chemistry. I scanned through several thread of discussion on water from time to time but the contents were too heavy for me. I am currently using Volvic water on my Robot. Fri drinking water, I have hard water tap and Also have the Harvey’s water softener system (using salt). I am in the market for an espresso machine with boiler. As I learnt that volvic water also prone to scaling issue. So, I think it is better to make my own water(?) any advice in this and also what water system should I use given I already have the Harvey’s? Re the zero water, I read that I need to fill it with water all the time and put into fridge. That sounds a bit of inconvenience but I will try to work It out if it is the recommendation. Thanks!

RO, RODI, Distilled and Zero water, in no particular order. All remineralised before feeding into the machine.

I'd be interested in how soft a water softener makes water? I've been looking at softeners (not for coffee) but wondered if it would be an additional benefit

@"Dusk"#p24826 Water softeners work really well with RO.

@"Dusk"#p24826 Bear in mind that many softeners don't decrease the mineral content of water - they exchange calcium and magnesium ions (that can form scale) with sodium ions (that don't). The taste of "softened" water isn't necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee.

> @"DavecUK"#p24833 Water softeners work really well with RO. How? Isn’t RO water deprived of minerals, so there’s nothing to soften anyway? I’m now curious.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p24838 water softeners work very effectively with ro systems, because the softened water doesn't clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter.

> @"CoyoteOldMan"#p24836 The taste of “softened” water isn’t necessarily the best… particularly for making coffee. Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water > @"DavecUK"#p24839 water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter Seems it will require less frequent filter replacement. Will also look into RO. Thanks both.

> @"Knluk"#p24842 Do you recommend using the zero water system to treat the unsoftened water With the Zero, it won't make much of a difference if you send (sodium) softened or unsoftened water through it - the ion-stripping is chemical, not physical as with RO. If you can pre-treat the water to remove some of the dissolved salts (and/or suspended solids), the Zero filter will last longer - but then you'll have the cost of two filters (the pre-treatment and the Zero), so I don't think it's going to make a difference there either.

> @"DavecUK"#p24839 because the softened water doesn’t clog the membrane as easily or the carbon block filter I understand. But what’s the value in putting RO water through a water softener? Is there any point? Isn’t the water already as “soft” as it can be?

Sorry. Need some spoon feeding on the topic of water

LMSC

Knluk the 12-16 L in 3 days?

A day.

We are two mostly. We also draw about 10-12L a day - coffee, tea, smoothies, drinking and cooking!

Knluk

Thanks again all! I did not expect the water is much more complicated than coffee. I have a bit more understanding on the water now.

So, I think my workflow should be:

Hard water > water softener > softened water > zerowater > prepare mineral concentrate and add to the water > use the mineralised water within 3 days (While keep some water in the zerowater between use (btw do you use this water?))

Re mineral:

Option 1: make it simple

KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l

Option 2: for best taste esp for dark roast

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l
KHCO₃ (potassium bicarbonate) - 80 mg/l
NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l

For both options, there is no scaling issue but need to replace all water in the boiler from time to time when the mineral concentration built up. May I ask what should be the interval here? Say every month?

Also, before I get a lever machine, for Robot, I plan to use zerowater after I finished the volvic I stock up. As there is not boiler in Robot (no scaling issue), should i add the following for taste enhancing?

MgSO₄ · 7 H₂O (Epsom salts) - 148 mg/l
NaCl (table salt) - 25 mg/l

MediumRoastSteam

Knluk Option 1: make it simple

Option 3, keep it very simple:

80mg/L or 100mg/L (I use the latter, my tastebuds cannot taste the difference)
Drain the steam (aka service) boiler every 2 months. When you do, keep the drained water. Let it cool down to room temperature and measure the TDS. Adjust the interval accordingly.

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk So, I think my workflow should be:

Hard water > water softener > softened water > zerowater > prepare mineral concentrate and add to the water > use the mineralised water within 3 days (While keep some water in the zerowater between use (btw do you use this water?))

If you are planning to use a Zero jug, there is no benefit in softening the water before de-ionising it. Unlike an RO membrane, the resin won’t ‘care’ whether it captures a sodium or a calcium atom.

Yes, I would use the water from the jug, if you keep cycling through it every couple of days. Not if it’s been sitting there for a week!

Knluk As there is not boiler in Robot (no scaling issue), should i add the following for taste enhancing?

Water alkalinity plays an important role in taste, so I would add the bicarbonate in the Robot as well.

Cuprajake

also worth noting, potassium and sodiums will give different tds readings i believe

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan there is no benefit in softening the water before de-ionising it.

No difference for the filter life too?

I have this 3M filter too but forgot the last time we changed the filter :(((

CoyoteOldMan

Knluk No difference for the filter life too?

Nope. At least, not if your softener is a typical ion-exchange softener.

Knluk

Please 🙏 help to confirm the following is okay🙏🙏🙏

Epsom salt

potassium bicarbonate

Table salt: (is Himalayan salt okay)

CoyoteOldMan

Epsom salt and bicarb - perfectly fine. Himalayan salt is also probably fine (it contains a bit of iron, hence the pink colouring, but so little that I don’t think it will affect the taste of anything), but it’s flipping expensive.

https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/salt-pepper/sainsburys-cooking-salt--polybag-15kg <– this is £1/kg
https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/bigger-packs-208331-44/fudco-himalayan-pink-salt-500g <– this is £6.30/kg

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan can’t thank you enough 🙌

dutchy101

OK so the need to use the water within 3 days is completely new to me. I’ve been storing remineralised Zerowater for my Minima for up to a few weeks at a time before using it in my Minima. I take it this is a bad idea? I would have thought it would be fine since it is all being boiled via the brew - boiler and steam boiler?

CoyoteOldMan

dutchy101 If you aren’t getting smells or colours in the stored water, it’s probably OK. The only way to know is to do a microbiological exam, as presence of bacteria/algae/protists would be the issue. I don’t think “3 days” is a hard limit…

Rob1

No salt. Avoid chloride. If you want sodium but want to keep it at scaa recommended 10mg/l use both Potassium and Sodium bicarb to get your alkalinity to 40mg/l - you can go higher or lower with alkalinity if you want but 40 is a good start. No need for hardness, but if you really want to try it and think it makes enough of a different to complicate maintenance do what you want…you have a robot to test on to make it easier. Magnesium isn’t any better than Calcium for scaling.

Knluk

Rob1 hi Rob, good to have your input. As mentioned above, I am hopeless for chemistry. But would love to hear your water recipe? I will try on my Robot but the main goal is optimzing the performance and minimising scaling on a boiler machine.

dutchy101

CoyoteOldMan

I’ve been doing this now since February and haven’t died yet, so hopefully all is OK. I have a Skuma RO unit coming in October, when I will be changing how I do things.

Rob1

Knluk

I use Magnesium bicarbonate and Sodium bicarbonate. You won’t find the former anywhere because you need to make it. I carbonate water and add Magnesium Hydroxide which reacts with the CO2 to form Magnesium Bicarbonate…..my water is about 30 GH and 45 KH.

I rate the coffee higher than with just Sodium/Potassium bicarb but I’d never advise anybody to do as I do. I remove the anti-vac valve of the service boiler every 5 weeks, syphon everything out and refill with distilled water (boilers are surgical steel). Yes, you could empty via the hot water tap but then the boiler and valve would be hot and it’s faster to just syphon it out than wait for the machine to heat up. And more cost-effective. It’s very easy for me to do it on my machine and I’m very comfortable doing that type of thing. It’s maybe a 15-minute process, if that, and the only maintenance I need to perform as my group isn’t lever actuated.

It’s worth the minor routine in my case but if somebody told me they prefered shots with just sodium or potassium bicarb compared to mine I wouldn’t be surprised. I hated shots made with the same hardness from Magnesium sulphate so ymmv.

dutchy101

Every time a water discussion comes up on here, I feel like I go straight back to square 1 in terms of my understanding of things - lol. Perhaps I might shift to a system of only making up just 1 × 5 litre batch of water at a time until the Skuma arrives as opposed to the 2 × 5I have been making over the last 6 months.

The water is certainly not discolouring, nor does it smell so hopefully it has all been OK so far.

@Cuprajake - how long do you tend to make up and use your concentrate for?

CoyoteOldMan

dutchy101 FWIW, I make 400 ml of concentrate, kept in the fridge in a screw-top jar (ex ice-cream jar). It lasts me ~1 month.

Cuprajake

PROB LONGER THAN I SHOULD LOL

dutchy101

Haha

Cuprajake

i make a 400ml concentrate, then i make up 8l of ro water at a time, this is stored under the sink in the dark, usually about 2 weeks is for use

Knluk

CoyoteOldMan still thinking how I should approach this best.

Mind sharing how much mg of potassium bicarbonate did you put in the 400ml concentrate? And how much (X)ml of concentrate do you put in (Y)ml of purified water? Appreciate that.

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