Single boiler thoughts

Thebomber

My first question post on here; hopefully you can help me narrow my thoughts on a new machine.

All other things being equal, will a single boiler espresso machine make coffee as well as a double boiler? How about steaming milk - once through the faff of waiting for the extra heat up, will it steam milk as well? So while a heat exchanger machine is able to do both simultaneously, it achieves this with some compromise over temperature stability. While a single boiler retains the temperature stability with a compromise on usability?

This is all coming from a desire to replace my Gaggia with something that retains as much of the kitchen counter work space as possible. I had been thinking Lelit Elizabeth but it doesn’t excite me, so now I’m thinking ECM Classika. I typically only make coffee for myself - 1 cappuccino and 1 espresso a day.

Thanks

dndrich

Thebomber Too bad you have crossed off the Elizabeth. It is a fantastic machine, and just about perfect in so many ways. I love mine. Small foot print but mighty boilers. Looks really nice in my kitchen.

DavecUK

I think you have your thoughts well ordered and correct. The single boiler machine will make great espresso, if it had good thermal managment via a PID, rather than the cheaper systems that are sometimes used on some machines. e.g. Shot temps varying by 6-8C , depending on when you pulled the shot if they have no PID, but a more simple thermostat (electronic, or manual). You also have to remember to refill the boiler after steaming. Usually this means opening the steam wand and running the pump.

HX do have compromise over temperature and you won’t ever really know what it is, this is because it depends on the length of your flush, time between shots and boiler temperature you set.

If you want to remove all compromises, then dual boiler is the way to go.

Cuprajake

you could get an espresso only machine then a milk frother?

Cuprajake

id rather from experience have a rock solid single boiler, at the expense of milk, vs a hx and having to temp surf.

DavecUK

Or buy used

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/983-crem-one-2b-dual-boiler-pid-useful-extras

Thebomber

Thanks both - looks like my thoughts are on the right lines. For me, at least for the next couple of years until a house move might be on the cards, double boilers are typically too big.

Am I right in thinking that descaling a double boiler can be difficult too? I’m in southern England and currently use a Britta filter plus descaling every month or so.

DavecUK

Thebomber Am I right in thinking that descaling a double boiler can be difficult too? I’m in southern England and currently use a Britta filter plus descaling every month or so.

Not really compared to some HX machines with horizontal boilers…usually they are pretty easy…the brew boiler can be more difficult, but no more so than any single boiler non HX.

Probably the Minima has the most difficult brew boiler to descale (steam boiler is easy).

Cuprajake

Bianca is small if you have the budget, I’d look at water treatment for any machine.

The marax is a good machine, there’s also the puriska or what it’s called

DavecUK

Cuprajake there’s also the puriska or what it’s called

I am using my Puristika at the moment….but remember, there is no steam (or hot water tap).

dfk41

Have you set a budget yet matey? You might find that the ACS Minima is within striking distance, even though it is a dual boiler

hornbyben

@Thebomber I’m a big fan of my heavily modified single boiler for just the reasons you list. Rock solid temperature stability, small footprint, easy to descale (I’m in Oxfordshire and also use Brita filtered water), energy efficient (as to steam you’re only heating 300ml from brew temp to steam temp, not a large steam boiler from cold).

It’s a bit of a hassle if I’m doing more than 3 flat whites (as I can steam that much milk in one go), but that happens rarely enough that I’m happy with the compromise.

For making one coffee (my normal use), I’m not convinced it’s that much slower. I pull the shot first, and by the time I’ve cleaned the portafilter and weighed out the milk it’s up to temp for steaming.

Thebomber

Thanks again for all your thoughts. The Minima has now joined the shortlist; it’s not so much the price creep that worries me, as the size creep, as it is slightly wider than the Classika and a Bianca is slightly wider again…😮

hornbyben - I admire your resourcefulness with the Silvia but while my Gaggia is heavily moded, I wouldn’t buy a replacement with the intention of doing the same from the outset.

Cuprajake

Yeah, but I presume it’s very temp stable?

DavecUK

Cuprajake No more so than a minima or any other well set up dual boiler and less so than an Evo. It’s just super small and cute.

Thebomber

Evergreen88 - as that’s the same switch as I’m considering it’s reassuring to hear. And thanks for the heads up on the differences from the Gaggia when switching to steam.

dndrich - the Elizabeth is not completely out the running as it is so suitable. Just not the same sort of object of desire as those with the E61 group.

Evergreen88

I have the ECM Classika PID and it’s a superb machine. I couldn’t ask for anything more espresso wise, but obviously making milk drinks is a bit of a faff. Not really a problem for me since 90% of my brews are espresso shots.

Coming from a Gaggia Classic i noticed it takes longer to get to steaming temp (1 minute Vs 30 seconds) and you need to draw more water out of the boiler before getting reasonably dry steam, which makes sense considering that the boiler is much bigger.

If you can live with this compromise it’s just a great machine.

dndrich

Ah, well, about that E61 group…

Remember that the 61 is the year 1961! And even though they look sexy and shiny, they take time to warm up and stabilize. Most require more maintenance. The big commercial machines have gone away from that and use saturated groups with great temperature stability and rapid warm up. You won’t see an E61 in your local café. The Elizabeth has a semi saturated group with the brew boiler on top and in direct contact with the group head. So fast warm up and great stability shot to shot. Function of the Elizabeth is hard to beat for home use.

PhilipUrquiza

I was with similar doubts and thought process as you. Ultimately, I’ve chosen to go on the Profitec GO as I want a lot of control over the espresso with some compromise on milk steaming as me and my wife don’t drink too much of those and it can easily handle to steam milk for 2 drinks at once. Furthermore, I want to mod it with a dimmer on the pump so I can do some sort of pressure profiling and pre infusion.

DavecUK

PhilipUrquiza Await the photos and an update. 😀