Hey there, I have my Bianca for a year now. I know the paddle can get a little stiff at times, but recently it got stiffer especially under pressure - which is when I use it the most of course. It’s not the first time, but the last time it happened (6 months ago) I used Molykote 111 to lube the needle valve and gaskets and everything was ok. This time, I again used the Molykote 111 and it got even stiffer. While the needle valve assembly is still in my hand, I tried rotating it back and forth and felt that when the gaskets are entering the mushroom cap it feels really sticky and not smooth enough. I tried wiping the lube and replaced the gaskets with new and spare ones I had. But still it’s the same. Just to make sure it’s clear, when the portafilter is under pressure with hot water, rotating the paddle is really difficult. This also happens when the needle is rotated counter clockwise all the way, so it is not an issue with the needle entering the gicleur (I believe). Maybe there’s a better food grade lubricant ? Maybe something happened to the grease itself and I need to get a new one ? Would really appreciate suggestions. Thanks all.

@"yonika"#p25442 Some photos of the dismantled valve may be useful. @"Norvin"#47 may also have something to add. I would recommend that lubrication more often than every 6 months is desirable. Also check this out the knowledge base article on this valve https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/blog

@"DavecUK"#p25445 Here are the pics. I forgot to mention that after a few rotations the grease becomes darker and darker. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/5TTjNod.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/5TTjNod.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/lVYv2Tg.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/lVYv2Tg.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/kdHo53v.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/kdHo53v.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/4T8Z0ZN.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/4T8Z0ZN.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/cpdLu6z.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/cpdLu6z.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"yonika"#p25448 is it stiff to turn when not fitted to the machine? Oh exactly the right photos as well, hopefully we can help. @"Norvin"#47 , what do you think.

These sound like the symptoms that @"thusband"#199 reported just before the internal thread in the top nut stripped. I replaced the thread and the valve operates smoothly now, suggesting that the fault was due to the thread. Could it be wear or a build up of crud on the respective threads? I can only suggest a thorough clean of the threads on both the shaft and inside the nut, with a smear of Molykote on reassembly.

@"DavecUK"#p25449 It feels stiff mostly when under pressure, but when not fitted it feels as if the most of the friction is coming from the gaskets rubbing on the inside of the mushroom cap. When you screw back the needle valve to the hex cap, you turn it counter clockwise and it is lifted. At some point, the black gaskets enter the cylinder of the cap, this is when I feel the grease is sticky and not smooth enough. Hope this explanation was clear 😬 Thanks

@"Norvin"#p25450 See my reply to Dave. It feels as if the friction comes from the gaskets rubbing inside the cap. Thanks for your help

No more ideas ? I tried removing the needle again, brushing the threads with brass brush. Cleaning residue of old grease with microfiber cloth and re-greasing with a smear of Molykote. After assembly everything felt smooth, but when I turn the pump on and hot water is flowing through the device it gets stiff again - even with no pressure. When I stop the flow it stays stiff until I pull the e61 lever half way - My guess is that it empties the chamber of the gicleur from hot water. So… what’s going on there ? 😔

> @"yonika"#p25519 So… what’s going on there ? It's difficult to know…. 1. It could be that when the heat expands the metals, then the thread gets tight, especially if it's stiff throughout the whole range, which eliminates the o rings 2. If it's stiff under pressure, it's because again the thread will have a slight upward pressure applied. 3. If it's stiff after a shot, the sealed brew system gets up to about 12 bar, due to water expansion, this is relieved as doon as you lower the lever enough for the top group valve to open So guessing a bit more, and I need to be careful here….especially as I don't know the water used, whether you have descaled etc.. **I emphasise, what follows is mostly guesswork** You got the machine and never saw my review of the valve itself which said the assembly comes (in my opinion) insufficiently lubricated and before fitting one should lubricate it. This was for the valve bought to fit on other machines. The logical corollary of this is, Lelit get the assembled valve, and fit it in the Bianca. **The second logical step is that if you buy a Bianca, it might be a good idea to remove the valve before using and add more lubrication.** The valve gets stiffer and you continue to use it…not worrying about it and not lubricating it. The O rings degenerate (they are EPDM, not FKM) and possibly some seepage of liquid gets in the threads. The pin thread is steel I think (guessing) and the nut is brass…steel and brass can react if surrounded by a little water. Finally it's so stiff you remove it and lubricate it, even replace the O rings, but the damage to the thread in the brass nut may already be done…you cannot buy the brass nut as a service part. Under no pressure the thread might feel fine, but under pressure is when it gets hard to move due to wear, continual use simply wears it more until eventually it fails. Fortunately @"Norvin"#47 may well have an effective repair for the nuts. It may well be worth people sending their nuts to him for his services, should he want to handle peoples nuts? The article I linked you to gives you a link to a source of much longer lasting FKM (Viton) O rings £8 for 100 delivered. *P.S. I have mentioned the lack of lubrication I found on my **one** valve sent for evaluation and that I think they should get their supplier to change to FKM O rings. I may well contact Mauro to as the suppliers to make the nut available as a spare. I don't know if that will solve the problem, but he might send me a few nuts to try?? They are owned by Breville now, so I am not sure if/how he can respond.*

Stiff Bianca Paddle before and after lubrication

yonika

DavecUK DavecUK
Thanks for the reply.

It would be great if the nut can be sold separately as a spare.
It is a but non-sense that one would need to buy the whole kit for a repair.

I am worried though that you’re right and the nut thread is damaged.

😔

DavecUK

yonika It is a but non-sense that one would need to buy the whole kit for a repair.

I have mentioned the potential issue to Lelit again and mentioned the nut should be a small spares item. They actually buy the unit in as an assembled “thing”, from a supplier…For now hang on, if they respond, I might ask for a bag of nuts…then I can send a few out.

I’ve also mentioned what I feel is a better long term solution…

Norvin

@yonica. There is not much information on the Lelit paddle, and no information on the thread that I could find. It has a very strange, non-standard thread that took me ages to work out how to replicate. I eventually succeeded and managed to repair a faulty nut, check out my ACS Minima restoration thread on this forum for a little more information.

I have four more threaded inserts and was thinking of either offering them for sale so people could have them inserted into their nuts by someone with a lathe (say £30 each to reflect the time and hassle of making them) or I can repair the nut with an insert for £60. I can’t do any machining in September.

yonika

DavecUK
Thanks for that.
Looking forward to your update !

DavecUK

yonika So an update to this.

I contacted Lelit, one of the 3 previous owners who was heading all their design for the last few years.

Resellers can now order the threaded nut using the code 2200095L1 Obviously, any resellers you contact won’t know this, but if you give them the code they can investigate. They don’t have to buy the entire kit. I don’t know how much the nut will cost…but I wouldn’t think a huge amount.

As always preventive maintenance is better than replacement, so lubricate every 3 months or so and always before it gets stiff. If you begin feeling any stiffness…lubricate (that didn’t come out right did it?).

CoyoteOldMan

DavecUK I don’t have a Bianca, but:

Thank you.
I love the fact that Norvin, who could have made some money out of this if Lelit had not supplied the part, was the first one to like the news.

This forum is a good place to be.

yonika

DavecUK
Thanks a lot Dave.
I will try to see where I can order this part from.

👍👍

Also, could you provide a link for somewhere to order the FKM o rings ?

yonika

DavecUK

Hi Dave,

I contacted Bella Barista and they wrote back to me that this part number is the guide for the lower spring on the group head.

I also tried contacting 1st line in the US because they have this part number in stock - but there, it is also shown as the guide for the spring. They said it is indeed the guide for the spring and not the top nut.

So, I’m currently back to square one 😞

I’m pasting here the reply from Bella Barista.

**
Hi Jonathan
We are at a loss why they say this as this is a guide for a spring that does not wear out.
If you describe to us what your issue is we can help more positively, the most common failure of the flow control is a snapped needle into possibly a snapped jet if you describe your issue or take your flow control off and inspect the needle and jet for damage we can help with sorting this.

Regards
Martin Richards
Technical Manager
Bella Barista
**

DavecUK

I also bought myself a pack of 50 FKM O’rings, this post reminded me I had forgotten do do so.

Waitforme

Great result @DavecUK , also thanks to @Norvin for engineering a solution prior to Lelit making the nut available as a spare.

👏👏

DavecUK

yonika I already did when I linked you to the knowledge base article about the paddle system. It’s in there. Buy a pack of 50, best bang for the buck.

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/blog

DavecUK

yonika it was the part number given to me,,,I will check I didn’t use the wrong part number, or that Lelit didn’t give me the wrong number.

Mauro was very clear about which part I was talking about, as I sent photos.

DavecUK

yonika OK I double checked the part number using a simple web search. 1st line I suspect have the part listed incorrectly.

https://www.jetblackespresso.com.au/shop/p/lelit-e61-group-cap-lpc-2200095l1

https://kavegepbolt.hu/shop_ordered/9160/pic/Lelit-PL162-Bianca.pdf

https://www.espressoman.ro/forum/Thread-Probleme-Flow-Control-E61-Bianca?pid=179708#pid179708

MediumRoastSteam

On a side note this is great news from Lelit. Even though effectively being absorbed into the corporate world, it’s listening to its customers and doing what’s right. Kudos to them.

yonika

DavecUK
So Bella Barista sent me another email and said that they are sorry for the misunderstanding and that this is indeed the correct part number.

They said that they don’t have it in stock and they will order some and list it on their web once they get it.
The bad news are - they said it could take a couple of months 😞

DavecUK

yonika Lelit might well be sending me something soon, if they do, I’ll see 🙈 if they can send me a bag of them as a favour.

It’s also worth mentioning, the paddle should not be closed with too much force, as that might start the thread stripping process!

thusband

DavecUK It’s also worth mentioning, the paddle should not be closed with too much force, as that might start the thread stripping process!

So it’s probably important to adjust the paddle so that when closed it doesn’t reach the end of the threads but it’s closed enough to shut water off. My paddle hits back on the left without any force at all and there’s no water coming out of the group.

DavecUK

thusband Yes, with the nut being brass and the spindle being steel I think, it’s bound to cause slight damage if overtightened and then the threads don’t engage as freely, which would start the process of wear…one in which lubrication will only delay the inevitable. It should be the lightest closure, as you have yours set.

Obviously there are potential moves to revise the whole part, I have suggested some things and this evening I asked for some nuts to be sent to me. If they do, then perhaps we can help a few of our forum members out if they have a problem. I will probably only get about 6 or 7 if I’m lucky, but having looked at the high prices on line…I thought it was worth asking. I expect as it’s not a Lelit made part, they don’t get it so cheaply.

Then hopefully if a member has a fail, for the price of an SAE they can get a replacement.

thusband

DavecUK

Yes, the nut is a lot cheaper than the assembly. Thanks for heading this up!

yonika

DavecUK
Thanks again Dave.
Hoping that soon you will have good news regarding them sending you a bag of nuts 🤭

Regarding the concerns of the closing the paddle too strong - I think the threads don’t have a limit of turning the needle clock-wise. What stops you from keeping on rotating it clock wise is the fact that you reach gicleur. So I’m not sure if the wear comes from this side.
However, rotating it all the way counter-clockwise is indeed limited by the top of the nut.

Anyway, hope these parts are revised in a backwards compatible manner. So far all the machines’ updates required expensive hardware changes.

Thanks

Amberale

DavecUK

Thanks Dave.
After nearly two years I hadn’t noticed my paddle getting stiff but it began to not function properly when lowering flow late in a shot. Basically it only lowered if totally closed.

I found a box of 240 various sized Viton O-rings including 20 in the appropriate size for about $25aud from a tool shop that services the air conditioning industry.

Ten minutes and a few dabs of lube and she swings free like your neighbours in the sixties and adjusts pressure like new.

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