My set up is a Baratza Virtuoso+ and a 9Barista. My first experience with making espresso at home starts from when I picked up the 9Barista at the beginning of the year. I've made espresso every day since getting it, so by my count, I've made over 200 espressos with it. So although I'm relatively new to espresso-making, I think I have a pretty good grasp on how to tweak the espresso with the tools I have. In case you don't know, the Virtuoso+ is a stepped grinder with 40 steps from very fine to coarse. What I've found is that the Virtuoso+ settings have a big impact on the results. If I have the grinder dialed in for espresso, and I move the setting by just one click, the taste of the espresso changes by a lot, and the extraction time changes by quite a lot — about 8-10 seconds in my experience. I can dial in a really good cup of espresso by first getting close with the grind setting, and then fine-tuning it by adjusting the dose. So I think of the grinder setting as a coarse adjustment, and the dose of coffee as a fine adjustment. And I can get really good results by this method. I understand that I can get more control over the grind with a grinder with more steps (e.g. the Sette 270, with 270 steps), or a stepless grinder (e.g. Niche Zero). My question is, if I can get really good results by adjusting the dose, what can I gain by upgrading my grinder to one that gives more finer control over the grind? I realize that I might be hampered by not knowing what I don't know. I think about the espresso flavor profile on a spectrum from bright/acidic/clear to strong/rich/intense, with too sour and too bitter on the extremes. It could be that a finer adjustment on the grind affects factors I'm not thinking about. If that's the case, I'm all ears.

Welcome to the forum. You should get a more consistent improved cup, together with improved workflow depending on the grinder. Of course this might lead to the spiral down the rabbit hole as after you get the grinder, you might wonder the same thing about the espresso maker? So be warned ☺️

@"DavecUK"#p26228 Thanks for the info! Just to clarify, when you say "more consistent improved cup", I think I understand that a grinder upgrade can make the espressos more consistent from cup to cup. But how would they be improved? I don't doubt that improvement is possible. I just want to know what I can expect. P.S. It was your videos on the Niche Zero that led me to this forum, so thanks for making those.

> @"wilburpan"#p26234 I don’t doubt that improvement is possible. I just want to know what I can expect. I'd sound like a high fi buff if If I used all the normal coffee terms, so personally I will just say you will probably like the coffee, or some coffees more.

@"DavecUK"#p26241 Ha! I consider myself a recovered (rehabilitated?) hi-fi buff, so I really appreciate what you're saying. 😉

In answer to your question and adding to the above, you get to choose a grinder that is built to deliver your preferred coffee style. For example if you want more clarity or "origin" flavors in your espresso then a larger flat burr grinder will likely deliver that whereas if you favor more body/viscosity and you are OK with a little less clarity, then a conical like the Niche will probably do very nicely. And if you want a bit of both, then perhaps consider a hybrid (conical and flat) like the Hedone Honne. And burr geometry, as opposed to flat versus conical, also has a big impact. For example a grinder with Mazzer Robur conical burrs (e.g. Weber Key) will yield more clarity than a grinder with Mazzer Kony conical burrs (e.g. Niche Zero). Both Mazzer conicals, but different geometry. I like the espresso from both, but they are noticeably different.

Please check this thread as well https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1048-electric-grinder/58

> @"tompoland"#p26343 And burr geometry, as opposed to flat versus conical, also has a big impact. For example a grinder with Mazzer Robur conical burrs (e.g. Weber Key) will yield more clarity than a grinder with Mazzer Kony conical burrs (e.g. Niche Zero). Both Mazzer conicals, but different geometry. I like the espresso from both, but they are noticeably different. This is interesting. It’s time for the Niche to have a sibling I feel…. A 71mm conical burr version!

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p26346 or a big big brother 83mm Kony? On a similar note I was surprised at the lack of difference in flavour and viscosity ( @"DavecUK"#1 was not) between a 71mm Mazzer Roburs in a Helor 106 and the 83mm Mazzer Roburs I put into the Mawani Livi. I really couldn't take any difference whatsoever. So it might be similar between a 63mm Kony (as in the niche) versus 83mm Konys were such a thing to exist. I'd love to see Niche take on Weber's Key grinder with their own 83mm Robur version or take on the EG-1 with a Niche 80mm flat. The stuff of dreams. Mine at least.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p26346 The Segment!

@"tompoland"#p26343 Thanks for the info. Can I try to unpack this a bit? I might have this wrong, but it sounds you're describing how the grinder and the type and size of burr affects the espresso along the bright/acidic/clear to strong/rich/intense spectrum that I'm thinking of, and I can see how a grinder can do that. My experience is that I can also make those adjustments with my current grinder, and I can do the same thing by changing the dose of coffee I'm using for my espresso. My question is, if the grinder is affecting the taste of espresso along that spectrum, and adjusting the dose of the coffee also affects the taste of espresso in the same manner, why not just stick with adjusting the dose instead of getting a new grinder? To be clear, I'm not questioning the idea that the grinder affects the taste of espresso. I'm just trying to understand how it is doing that separate from the dose of the coffee.

What do I get when I upgrade my grinder?

MediumRoastSteam

CoyoteOldMan - There you go… You can like this one too 🤪

tompoland

MediumRoastSteam although the grinder will make a difference, don’t expect it to be a “holy taste change Batman!” moment.

Agree with this when comparing two high end grinders with similar size burr sets and geometry (or two low end grinders for that matter).

Personally, I think I have taste buds that are about as discerning as my Labrador’s appetite. But even I notice a significant difference between say an Italmill burr set and Mazzer and between a Mazzer and DRM Hybrid.

It’s definitely not like the difference between say beer and wine, but more like a Lager versus a Pale Ale. It’s significant.

MWJB

wilburpan Sorry to be so obtuse, but I’m missing something here. If I understand this, different grinders can affect the profile in a way that’s different from the under- to over-extraction range described here? Can you give an example of how different grinders affect the profile in different ways in your experience?

Any functioning grinder from a ceramic burr hand grinder (Porlex/Hario slim etc.) upwards can achieve under to nominal extractions (and tasty cups, even if they are more effort). However, some may do this with cleaner cups as a result. Some may have a muddier/chewier texture with less distinct notes (whether this is better, or worse for you is another question). These comparisons are assumed whilst the brews are in a good taste range, rather than the generic malfunctions of extraction.

You will still recognise different coffees for what they are, in comparisons with other coffee, just the balance will change and the ease of distinguishing specific notes. The coffee is & should be the biggest variable.

If you stick to one grinder, you may not consider that you have a problem, because maybe you don’t. I chop and change grinders, but I generally stick to the ones that feel nicest/least faff to use.

The more coffee you make, eventually there may be something repetitive in the cup that’s negative, even when you have done everything right. When this happens try and articulate what it is and how you want it to change. A/B test any contenders against your current grinder.

The method for improving your coffee with any particular grinder is the same, you open & close the burr gap. So, if you’re happy now, carry on until you’re not.

Like I said before, practically speaking, the more parameters you have to adjust to stay on track, the more the potential wastage, so more precise adjustment could be useful here (but that is your call).

wilburpan

MWJB You will still recognise different coffees for what they are, in comparisons with other coffee, just the balance will change and the ease of distinguishing specific notes. The coffee is & should be the biggest variable.

In my experience so far, this is the case — the coffee is the biggest variable. I’ll take that as a sign that I kind of know what I’m doing. 😉

MWJB Like I said before, practically speaking, the more parameters you have to adjust to stay on track, the more the potential wastage, so more precise adjustment could be useful here (but that is your call).

One thing for sure with the 9Barista that I use is that the only variables I have are the grind and the dose. I have some control over the extraction time, but only by changing the grind and/or dose. Maybe this is a good thing after all.

MWJB

wilburpan Time is less of a variable/parameter. It’s a function of grind and the coffee itself (different coffees flow at different rates, at a ball-park extraction). It is normal for different coffees to brew at different speeds and still taste good. So don’t fret over a few seconds here & there.

wilburpan

Just to revisit my original question, here’s an example of what I’m seeing with my Baratza Virtuoso+ and dosing. This is all with a 9Barista in terms of the effect that changing the grind setting and dose have on my espresso.

This Post-It has my notes as I’m dialing in an espresso made with a bag of beans I’m trying for the first time. We can ignore the top line. In case you can’t read my chicken scratch, the first attempt is grinder setting 7 and 16.0g, which resulted in a 15s extraction time. The entries are:

Grinder 7 - 16.0g, 15s
Grinder 6 - 16.0g, 22s
Grinder 5 - 16.0g, blocked
Grinder 7 - 19.0g, 20s
Grinder 6 - 19.0g, 35s
Grinder 6 - 18.5g, 30s

The extraction time correlates pretty well with what I think about the range of flavors in an espresso. The shorter the extraction time, the less rich and more bright/sour the espresso gets, and the longer the extraction time, the more rich and strong/bitter. The two shots that were 20 and 22s were okay, but the ones that are in the 25-35s range were very enjoyable, and the last one at 30s was fantastic. That’s been my experience with the 9Barista regardless of the coffee beans I use.

As you can see, a single click on my grinder results in quite a big change in extraction time if the dose of coffee is the same. For example, at 16g, going from 7 to 6 is a 7s change in extraction, and at 19g, going from 7 to 6 is a 15s change.

On the other hand, what I think are fairly significant changes in coffee dose (0.5g) result in less of a change in extraction time (5s at grinder setting 6).

Another example — at grinder setting 7, going from 16g to 19g is only a 5s change in extraction time. At grinder setting 6, the same dose change results in a 13s change in extraction. This is on the order of a single click change on the grinder, but a 3g change in coffee dose is pretty big by anyone’s standards.

Again, using this approach (using the grinder to get close, then adjusting the dose to fine tune) I can get espresso at least as good as any coffee shop in my area, and that are as good the best cups of espresso I remember having. But I think it’s clear that I have less fine control over the espresso with my current grinder than I do by adjusting the dose.

MWJB

You’re changing your dose by nearly 20%, that’s huge.

16g never seems to work, so stick to 18.5-19g at 6.

You haven’t recorded any taste scores?

You haven’t recorded any output weights?

“The extraction time correlates pretty well with what I think about the range of flavors in an espresso. The shorter the extraction time, the less rich and more bright/sour the espresso gets, and the longer the extraction time, the more rich and strong/bitter.”
This doesn’t sound like the range of flavours in normally extracted espresso (e.g. buying a bright bean vs buying a lower acidity bean), it sounds like degrees of malfunction (under to OK?

If your shots are as good as what you what you get out, why do you perceive you’re lacking anything?

wilburpan

MWJB You’re changing your dose by nearly 20%, that’s huge.

16g never seems to work, so stick to 18.5-19g at 6.

I only started at 16g because that’s what was recommended by my local coffee shop where I got these beans. I jumped straight to 19g based on my past experience and how it tasted. Pretty much every other bean I’ve tried so far lands in the 18-20g range.

MWJB You haven’t recorded any taste scores?

You haven’t recorded any output weights?

I didn’t record any taste scores because I just tasted the cup and then wrote down what I wanted to try the next time. The 9Barista seems to put out about 1:2.2 regardless of the actual dose I put in.

MWJB “The extraction time correlates pretty well with what I think about the range of flavors in an espresso. The shorter the extraction time, the less rich and more bright/sour the espresso gets, and the longer the extraction time, the more rich and strong/bitter.”
This doesn’t sound like the range of flavours in normally extracted espresso (e.g. buying a bright bean vs buying a lower acidity bean), it sounds like degrees of malfunction (under to OK?

Well, the first few attempts were bad to somewhat tolerable, so you are describing my experience pretty well with these first attempts at dialing in coffee beans I had never tried before.

MWJB If your shots are as good as what you what you get out, why do you perceive you’re lacking anything?

That’s what I was trying to find out when I wrote my original question. From what I’ve seen, there are a lot of people that say that the Baratza Virtuoso+ isn’t ideal for espresso. I wanted to see what it is that I’m missing. Maybe it’s nothing.

Cuprajake

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LMSC

wilburpan You might consider upping the dose by a gram and see. A half is unlikely to get you the difference.

Taste scores along with comments / notes, from what I have learnt so far, help me decide the following :

how the cup was to me?
what I liked and disliked?
what requires tuning - grind size, ratio, …?
would I buy again?
If I did, I get to compare the current vs past, and hopefully, learn from there

Of course, MWJB would provide a detailed insight as he is doing it for a very long time. :-)

wilburpan

LMSC Sounds like your first three items are a lot like what I was doing on my Post-It note, except that I didn’t write everything down. There’s only so much room on it. 😉

For example, on the next-to-last entry (Grinder 6 - 19.0g, 35s), I remember enjoying the cup, and thought to myself, “Good espresso, but a little bitter.” My options with my set up would be either to grind coarser or lower the dose. Knowing how much of a change going one click coarser on my grinder would be based on the previous attempts and overall experience, I decided to go down on the dose.

Again, based on overall experience, I decided to try going down by 0.5g next time, and so I wrote down “6 - 18.5g” on my Post-It for the next time I made espresso.

The next morning, which was yesterday, I made an espresso using those settings, and it was right on. This morning I made another espresso with the same settings, and it was still yummy.

LMSC

wilburpan Giphy - Consulting Business School GIF by MBAchic.com

wilburpan

LMSC Is this better? 😉

Hope I get extra credit for trying to plot out the correlation between dose and extraction time. 😉

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