• Grinders

  • What do I get when I upgrade my grinder?

MediumRoastSteam although the grinder will make a difference, don’t expect it to be a “holy taste change Batman!” moment.

Agree with this when comparing two high end grinders with similar size burr sets and geometry (or two low end grinders for that matter).

Personally, I think I have taste buds that are about as discerning as my Labrador’s appetite. But even I notice a significant difference between say an Italmill burr set and Mazzer and between a Mazzer and DRM Hybrid.

It’s definitely not like the difference between say beer and wine, but more like a Lager versus a Pale Ale. It’s significant.

    wilburpan Sorry to be so obtuse, but I’m missing something here. If I understand this, different grinders can affect the profile in a way that’s different from the under- to over-extraction range described here? Can you give an example of how different grinders affect the profile in different ways in your experience?

    Any functioning grinder from a ceramic burr hand grinder (Porlex/Hario slim etc.) upwards can achieve under to nominal extractions (and tasty cups, even if they are more effort). However, some may do this with cleaner cups as a result. Some may have a muddier/chewier texture with less distinct notes (whether this is better, or worse for you is another question). These comparisons are assumed whilst the brews are in a good taste range, rather than the generic malfunctions of extraction.

    You will still recognise different coffees for what they are, in comparisons with other coffee, just the balance will change and the ease of distinguishing specific notes. The coffee is & should be the biggest variable.

    If you stick to one grinder, you may not consider that you have a problem, because maybe you don’t. I chop and change grinders, but I generally stick to the ones that feel nicest/least faff to use.

    The more coffee you make, eventually there may be something repetitive in the cup that’s negative, even when you have done everything right. When this happens try and articulate what it is and how you want it to change. A/B test any contenders against your current grinder.

    The method for improving your coffee with any particular grinder is the same, you open & close the burr gap. So, if you’re happy now, carry on until you’re not.

    Like I said before, practically speaking, the more parameters you have to adjust to stay on track, the more the potential wastage, so more precise adjustment could be useful here (but that is your call).

        MWJB You will still recognise different coffees for what they are, in comparisons with other coffee, just the balance will change and the ease of distinguishing specific notes. The coffee is & should be the biggest variable.

        In my experience so far, this is the case — the coffee is the biggest variable. I’ll take that as a sign that I kind of know what I’m doing. 😉

        MWJB Like I said before, practically speaking, the more parameters you have to adjust to stay on track, the more the potential wastage, so more precise adjustment could be useful here (but that is your call).

        One thing for sure with the 9Barista that I use is that the only variables I have are the grind and the dose. I have some control over the extraction time, but only by changing the grind and/or dose. Maybe this is a good thing after all.

              wilburpan Time is less of a variable/parameter. It’s a function of grind and the coffee itself (different coffees flow at different rates, at a ball-park extraction). It is normal for different coffees to brew at different speeds and still taste good. So don’t fret over a few seconds here & there.

                6 days later

                Just to revisit my original question, here’s an example of what I’m seeing with my Baratza Virtuoso+ and dosing. This is all with a 9Barista in terms of the effect that changing the grind setting and dose have on my espresso.

                This Post-It has my notes as I’m dialing in an espresso made with a bag of beans I’m trying for the first time. We can ignore the top line. In case you can’t read my chicken scratch, the first attempt is grinder setting 7 and 16.0g, which resulted in a 15s extraction time. The entries are:

                • Grinder 7 - 16.0g, 15s
                • Grinder 6 - 16.0g, 22s
                • Grinder 5 - 16.0g, blocked
                • Grinder 7 - 19.0g, 20s
                • Grinder 6 - 19.0g, 35s
                • Grinder 6 - 18.5g, 30s

                The extraction time correlates pretty well with what I think about the range of flavors in an espresso. The shorter the extraction time, the less rich and more bright/sour the espresso gets, and the longer the extraction time, the more rich and strong/bitter. The two shots that were 20 and 22s were okay, but the ones that are in the 25-35s range were very enjoyable, and the last one at 30s was fantastic. That’s been my experience with the 9Barista regardless of the coffee beans I use.

                As you can see, a single click on my grinder results in quite a big change in extraction time if the dose of coffee is the same. For example, at 16g, going from 7 to 6 is a 7s change in extraction, and at 19g, going from 7 to 6 is a 15s change.

                On the other hand, what I think are fairly significant changes in coffee dose (0.5g) result in less of a change in extraction time (5s at grinder setting 6).

                Another example — at grinder setting 7, going from 16g to 19g is only a 5s change in extraction time. At grinder setting 6, the same dose change results in a 13s change in extraction. This is on the order of a single click change on the grinder, but a 3g change in coffee dose is pretty big by anyone’s standards.

                Again, using this approach (using the grinder to get close, then adjusting the dose to fine tune) I can get espresso at least as good as any coffee shop in my area, and that are as good the best cups of espresso I remember having. But I think it’s clear that I have less fine control over the espresso with my current grinder than I do by adjusting the dose.

                You’re changing your dose by nearly 20%, that’s huge.

                16g never seems to work, so stick to 18.5-19g at 6.

                You haven’t recorded any taste scores?

                You haven’t recorded any output weights?

                “The extraction time correlates pretty well with what I think about the range of flavors in an espresso. The shorter the extraction time, the less rich and more bright/sour the espresso gets, and the longer the extraction time, the more rich and strong/bitter.”
                This doesn’t sound like the range of flavours in normally extracted espresso (e.g. buying a bright bean vs buying a lower acidity bean), it sounds like degrees of malfunction (under to OK?

                If your shots are as good as what you what you get out, why do you perceive you’re lacking anything?

                  Giphy - Awesome Rock N Roll GIF by DreamWorks Trolls

                  Decent De1pro v1.45 - Niche Duo - Niche Zero - Decent is the best machine ever made -

                  MWJB You’re changing your dose by nearly 20%, that’s huge.

                  16g never seems to work, so stick to 18.5-19g at 6.

                  I only started at 16g because that’s what was recommended by my local coffee shop where I got these beans. I jumped straight to 19g based on my past experience and how it tasted. Pretty much every other bean I’ve tried so far lands in the 18-20g range.

                  MWJB You haven’t recorded any taste scores?

                  You haven’t recorded any output weights?

                  I didn’t record any taste scores because I just tasted the cup and then wrote down what I wanted to try the next time. The 9Barista seems to put out about 1:2.2 regardless of the actual dose I put in.

                  MWJB “The extraction time correlates pretty well with what I think about the range of flavors in an espresso. The shorter the extraction time, the less rich and more bright/sour the espresso gets, and the longer the extraction time, the more rich and strong/bitter.”
                  This doesn’t sound like the range of flavours in normally extracted espresso (e.g. buying a bright bean vs buying a lower acidity bean), it sounds like degrees of malfunction (under to OK?

                  Well, the first few attempts were bad to somewhat tolerable, so you are describing my experience pretty well with these first attempts at dialing in coffee beans I had never tried before.

                  MWJB If your shots are as good as what you what you get out, why do you perceive you’re lacking anything?

                  That’s what I was trying to find out when I wrote my original question. From what I’ve seen, there are a lot of people that say that the Baratza Virtuoso+ isn’t ideal for espresso. I wanted to see what it is that I’m missing. Maybe it’s nothing.

                  • LMSC replied to this.

                            wilburpan You might consider upping the dose by a gram and see. A half is unlikely to get you the difference.

                            Taste scores along with comments / notes, from what I have learnt so far, help me decide the following :

                            • how the cup was to me?
                            • what I liked and disliked?
                            • what requires tuning - grind size, ratio, …?
                            • would I buy again?
                            • If I did, I get to compare the current vs past, and hopefully, learn from there

                            Of course, MWJB would provide a detailed insight as he is doing it for a very long time. :-)

                                LMSC Sounds like your first three items are a lot like what I was doing on my Post-It note, except that I didn’t write everything down. There’s only so much room on it. 😉

                                For example, on the next-to-last entry (Grinder 6 - 19.0g, 35s), I remember enjoying the cup, and thought to myself, “Good espresso, but a little bitter.” My options with my set up would be either to grind coarser or lower the dose. Knowing how much of a change going one click coarser on my grinder would be based on the previous attempts and overall experience, I decided to go down on the dose.

                                Again, based on overall experience, I decided to try going down by 0.5g next time, and so I wrote down “6 - 18.5g” on my Post-It for the next time I made espresso.

                                The next morning, which was yesterday, I made an espresso using those settings, and it was right on. This morning I made another espresso with the same settings, and it was still yummy.