I have been reading lots of different posts full of opinions, viewpoints and some with great and impressive knowledge based information. Throughout there is a lot of honesty and some great advice. This has made me look at various machines that potentially might fit my bill. In doing so I have become more aware of how easy it is to develop confirmation bias. By that I mean by looking at things that begin to support our own hypotheses. In doing this we are effectively trying to confirm to ourselves that we have made the right decision. Let's face it most people don't like to assume they got it wrong, and more so if that assumption is weighted by the fact that it cost them a lot of money. I am not for one moment saying that consumers make bad decisions, what I am saying is that it can be easy to form biases through things such as selective overweighting of choice consistent evidence, highlighted by researchers such as Zwicky or Wang. It has made me more aware of how important it is to take all viewpoints into account, with the net result that this forum has become for me an invaluable aid to look at decision making from many angles and hopefully by the end helping me to make an informed decision. Through that process I have looked at machines from Lelit, Ecm, profitec and some others. As I put some biases aside, I have moved now towards ACS Leva. Might be a tad out of my price bracket but looks a hell of a machine! As a side note Just received a text from a family member who got a coffee from a cafe using La Marzocco machines. Asked them how was it. They replied " OK but unassuming". Which goes to show that there is more than just good machines, to get good coffee. The quality of the coffee and skill of the barista make also a huge difference, and I'm sure to most of us here that's no surprise.

The skill of the chef, is to prepare the food correctly, before it is cooked...........

Something else that has a considerable bearing on the quality of the coffee is frequency of maintenance and cleaning.

> @"coffeealex"#p26945 I have moved now towards ACS Leva. Might be a tad out of my price bracket but looks a hell of a machine! I think there may well be a used one in the classified…but not sure if it's local to you or not. Potentially a big saving https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/713-acs-vesuvuis-evo-leva-for-sale/22

I'd like to think I don't really do confirmation bias after spending £3500 on a machine and sending it back 🤣 I'm one of those people who calls a spade a spade. If a product delivers then good but if it's snake oil then I will say, this goes true with my work and cars/car care products too. Another industry full of bs. I will say through my progression of machines Ives had a few. That each one has been an improvement on the later, the grinder always being a constant. There are alot of people who will justify there purchase, some out of blind loyalty to a product or brand,

I never had a progressive experience, be it a vehicle or a coffee machine. Went straight from £100 machine to £2500. I kept waiting without one for more than a year. The Evo was timely and it ticked all the boxes. Neither regretted it nor had a confirmation bias. The bottom line is it is a personal preference as we have a range of machines, each capable of making a good espresso! The coffee machine is one of the ingredients. We need a capable grinder, good water and good coffee. If we just want a good coffee, we don’t even need an espresso machine. A clever or a V60 would do! 😊

@"Cuprajake"#p26952 What was it about the Leva that made it the right choice for you? Its undoubtedly a well thought out machine from what I can tell.

@"LMSC"#p26955 I understand we all have different priorities but what made you lean towards the Evo?

@"coffeealex"#p26958 I think once you've had a lever there in your blood, When you get to the point of spending £2000 plus on a machine 🤯 a point I never thought I'd get to, you need to see what you get for the money. Biggest thing is temp stability. After that it's adjustability. I had the Bianca before the leva. They both have temp control, the lever a tad more so, the Bianca had the quieter rotary pump Vs the gear of the leva, it had flow control where the leva has the spring profile. I personally feel once you get to this stage it's little things. I like levers because there's no chemical back flushing, like with an e61. Dryer pucks with levers too, they have a more forgiving profile. The flow control on a Bianca can save shots to though. Fwiw id prefer a Bianca over a Linea mini. More adjustable.

> @"coffeealex"#p26959 what made you lean towards the Evo? Dave’s Alpha bed video on the youtube, his ideas, the design and vision for the machine, the features and the price, although I had initially wanted Minima! I read all the threads, the powerful feature of Evo and also loved the way the machine looked as it was a lever. Because, I was always fascinated by La Pavoni.

> @"Cuprajake"#p26960 Fwiw id prefer a Bianca over a Linea mini. More adjustable. Just playing devil’s advocate here but… Could this be confirmation bias in itself, in the sense that you had a Bianca but not (that I know of) a LM Linea Mini? LMLM owners swear by it. I never used or had a coffee from one, so I can’t say anything. But equally, like you, I’d buy the Bianca over the LMLM - but for a different reason: price.

Confirmation Bias

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK Active mind keeping me awake sometimes.

So true. I often don’t sleep well if I have unsolvable problems in my mind. Now, if you are a software engineer, that’s just a fact of life….

Alpesh

MediumRoastSteam

I can relate to that. Some of my best solutions have been ‘engineered’ lying in bed instead of in front of a computer

MediumRoastSteam

Alpesh aren’t they all? 😊 how often do you go to work and say, prior to a whiteboard session with your colleagues: “I thought about it last night…”

tompoland

MediumRoastSteam most of the time “I was walking the dog this morning and I thought …”

Ernie1

The best machine you can get is the one you can afford and the one you enjoy using day-in day-out. It’s not the one with the most impressive spec sheet. Take the Decent vs the Faema E61 for example, both fantastic machines capable of great coffee, but very very different in how they look and work.

I think there’s some peace of mind to be found in acknowledging the shortcomings of something being negated by the enjoyment of ownership/use. I have zero desire to own a lever machine or a Decent, but can appreciate that both might make better coffee and bring their owners as much enjoyment as the Bianca does for me. I’d love a Faema E61, but purely because of how they look and I’m sure, even in spite of coffee not necessarily being any better than the Bianca, I know I’d love owning/using one.

Same with cars or motorbikes. I rode Harleys for years and encountered so many people who simply could not fathom why anyone would ride one. They’re slow, expensive, heavy, had a terrible reputation for reliability in the 60s/70s. The reason was simple though, every time I fired it up and rode away on it I enjoyed it.

coffeealex

DavecUK I think everyone is biased, it’s part of being human. The trick is whether that bias can be set aside when faced with logical thinking, experimentation and assessment of results.

This is the point I am trying to highlight in this thread. Biases are part of human behaviourism, but been aware of them can help to balance decision making. The way I personally believe this is best achieved when choosing a product, (in my case an espresso machine), is by carefully analysing your personal needs for choosing one, then balancing that with different viewpoints so that makes your own personal biases less dominant.

Doram

coffeealex This is the point I am trying to highlight in this thread. Biases are part of human behaviourism, but been aware of them can help to balance decision making.

coffeealex

We are all biased, period. We may think our decisions are rational and objectively correct but there is no such thing and we are probably cheating ourselves if we do (I join tompoland’s recommendation for Predictably Irrational - it’s a really fun and easy read!)

There is probably nothing objectively true or rational about buying expensive coffee equipment. We ignore that because we enjoy it, but better not think we are rational or unbiased. All you can do is take advice from people who have similar biases to your own, and hopefully this will make you as happy as it made them. ;-)

coffeealex

Doram We are all biased, period.

It is true that bias forms part of any decision we make, from the papers we read to the opinions we have and choices we make. Been aware that this is the case is in itself I believe, is a form of balance that sometimes is helpful in us to better understand other peoples viewpoints, and not become ingrained in just our own

wilburpan

Instead of “unconscious bias”, it may be better to think of this situation as the fact that different people have different priorities that impact decision making. I like this line of thought myself because it is less pejorative, and likely mirrors how we all think in a better way.

For example, let’s look at the situation where someone is looking to buy an espresso machine. All the facts about the espresso machine are out there for people to absorb. You may look at the options, and settle on a Lelit Elizabeth. (These are all examples.) Someone else may look at the same information, and decide on a Breville Barista Pro. And I decided on a 9Barista, which seems to not be a common choice among this crowd.

Are these different decisions examples of unconscious bias? I think it’s more likely that all three people are thinking rationally, but they have different priorities. The first person may be looking for ultimate performance. The second may have a kitchen outfitted with other Breville appliances, and wants the new espresso machine to match. And in my case, space was the major priority by far.

Of course, my wanting to frame this in the light of different priorities might be influenced by unconscious bias. 😉

DavecUK

wilburpan This is why i don’t generally compare equipment in my reviews, I prefer each review to talk about what that product brings to the table and let the reader decide whats important to them.

-Mac

I have two things that I’ve always used when deciding between two options:

Always make the decision while you’re busting for a pee. It focuses the mind.
Assign each choice to each side of a coin. Flip the coin. While it’s in the air you’ll ALWAYS find yourself hoping it comes down one way or the other. Go with that decision.

mathof2

I’m sure it’s true that many people are biased in favour of what they have just spent a lot of money to buy; but, on the other hand, there’s another habit of mind often called “consumer remorse”. I have found that the latter is the one I’m more liable to experience. In time, however, I expect that both of these biases wear off and one gets a pretty clear idea of the faults and virtues of what they use regularly.

little_tipple

One interesting aspect that I’ve seen on this, and other, non-coffee related forums, is people having made their own decision prior to posting a request for help, whether they know it or not. They then ask for advice as to what they should get/do/make, and proceed to discount any advice against their decision. There was a notable example of this recently on here, whereby when he didn’t get the answer he wanted, he immediately went “to the dark side” and asked the same question, albeit worded more strongly to get the answer he wanted… it’s a fascinating element of the human condition…

Cuprajake

agree with that,

LMSC

Although we aim to provide unbiased views and recommendations in terms of the cup quality, durability and best bang for the buck via-a-vis the machine, grinder, water and beans to the prospective owner, I have got to say we are also implicitly biased.

we gently steer them to machines of our choice (justified or otherwise is all relative)
unable to fill-in / help the segment that’s interested in convenience or forced by compulsions of one way or another. They can’t, what ever may be the reason. This is a large segment. They are left to the mercy of monetisation-driven reviewers and you tubers.

How do we remove this bias or address this segment?

CoyoteOldMan

LMSC On the second point, other than keeping the community alive and gradually attracting more people that can fill the experience/expertise gap… I don’t know what anyone can do. In the meantime, staying honest and telling people:

We as a community don’t have in depth expertise in this area
From the limited expertise we have, we recommend/don’t recommend X, Y or Z (equipment, materials, processes, whatever)

is probably the best thing.

Cuprajake

but being totally un bias,

can we provide a list of say 10 machines and 10 grinders we have all had experience with?

if you look at whats for sale on say bella barista, theres prob only 20 machines, and there the biggest uk supplier imo

then you add that most newbies - i know i did shudder at spending £1000+ on a coffee machine haha

LMSC

Cuprajake Exactly is my point.

Because, we may be putting off a lot of prospective members, who will defo lurk, before joining. They know we end up recommending gears in excess of £1k in total

If some one wants machines for convenience, we can’t shoo them away (not literally) and say sorry, can’t help.

I think we need to compile a list for various price brackets and put them under sticky FAQ threads @DavecUK maintains.

It should cover machine, grinder, water and a few lines for beans.

tompoland

LMSC think we need to compile a list for various price brackets and put them under sticky FAQ threads @DavecUK maintains.

It should cover machine, grinder, water and a few lines for beans.

Great idea.

Cuprajake

agree, ive never used a bean to cup other than a costa in a petrol station,

i think the biggest bug bear i have is that you need to spend around £1500 to get good entry level kit ,

my upgrade path was wasteful with money and beans, to where i am now, but if we look at the £500 bracket what espresso machine could we recommend? you would struggle

i hope we dont come across as snobby id hate to think that,

i think it would be good to tie it all in to a section of almost an idiots guide, because most get into coffee through chains - then a cheap pod machine and then progress, so if we can educate that way ie grinder a does this while more expensive grinder b gives this, then it gives people options, rather than saying just get a bianca, lol

but get the bianca

LMSC

£1500 for a good kit of machine, grinder and water leaving aside beans cost. That’s a lot and is unfortunately, the reality. I just don’t see a lot of people, except like us, opening the wallet for this.

For them, B2C machine gets them a nice package. They may get £2.5-£3.0 per 227g bag from the store. It’s cheaper at Lidl / Aldi. These combo puts a huge smile on their face. Imagine telling them £1500, SO beans, blah blah.

Although my family loves what I make, and making a tiny step forward, they still think £2.5k on the lever is madness.

Agree, we need a list - pod to the most fancied.

If we don’t have an expertise, we don’t; we don’t have to. We put a disclaimer if we don’t have a view on a list. It’s gets updated as we gain experience as a community as the taste is relative.

Cuprajake

LMSC

i agree, coming into all this, i got the holy grail gaggia classic and a jx pro grinder, hated the classic, went to a duo temp pro and had much better results,

who knows though with sage/breville buying lelit, prosumer machines may get alot better.

when i started £500 was the magic number,

ive never used the df64 but at 400 i think it gives a good flat option vs the niche, and spp burrs can be added along the journey,

but like anything its diminishing returns - is my lever 10 times better than a duo temp pro, how do we quantify it?

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