Hi all, So far have narrowed down search from upgrade my Rocket Cellini to below options: ECM Synchronika Quickmill Vetrano 2B Evo La Marzocco Linea Mini ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva Now the first two are standard E61 double boiler machines and the LMLM is a high end semi auto and the last one is a manual lever based machine with some features like boiler and steam. Hard to decide which to pick to make upgrade to my Rocket Cellini. My concern is support, reliability, ease of use and fun factor in pulling great shots and I make mostly milk based espresso drinks.

@"sacguy71"#p28375 Let me help you decide. 1. Where in the world are you? 2. How much is your budget (The LMLM is a lot more expensive than the others, at least in the UK); 3. Do you like the E61? 4. Do you care about fast warm up time? 5. Do you care about very precise and fast responsive temperature control? 6. Have you also considered the Lelit Bianca? 7. What do you like about the LMLM? 8. Have you ever used a lever machine? 9. Are you hands on when coming to maintenance of espresso machines? Would be interesting to know your rationale when narrowing down to those machines.

@"sacguy71"#p28375 In terms of ease of use and fun, I'd say that a lever is hard to beat. Then again, I'm biased (and I haven't really used any of the others).

@"sacguy71"#p28375 Not enough info but I would suggest changing the list a bit: 1. Lelit Bianca (Beats the Snycho easy spec wise and feature set) 2. ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva (Decent Lever machine in that price range) 3. Rocket R9 One (Near the LMLM price and get a better feature set). Using this one personnely after upgrading from a Lelit Bianca.

Only one machine on that list I'd choose

Bianca if E61 group, Evo if lever. BTW, there is a lever still available on our classifieds. It’s a steal at asking.

Looking for next level espresso machine

sacguy71

1/ northern California Sacramento area 2/ Budget under 10k but would prefer keep it below 5k if possible 3. yes it is fine 4/ yes want fast warm up time 5/ yes want control over those variables 6/ yes but heard complaints on build quality 7/ design and powerful steam and great quality machine 8/ no but I have a cheap Flair 58 coming tomorrow to test before spending on expensive lever machine 9/ not really but need to learn

MediumRoastSteam

CoyoteOldMan

sacguy71 Bear in mind that a manual lever and a spring lever are rather different… certainly in terms of ease-of-use. I hope you’ll enjoy using the Flair tomorrow!

DavecUK

Don’t worry about Bianca build quality, I have 3 of them, 2 of which have no problems and one I have to unbox and set up. Lovely machines, as is the Vesuvius Evo Lever, if you want to enter lever land (genuine 15m warm up too).

sacguy71

DavecUK how is the steam power on the Bianca for frothing milk? Can it get nice microfoam?

MediumRoastSteam

sacguy71 how is the steam power on the Bianca for frothing milk? Can it get nice microfoam?

@Cuprajake can tell you more. I’ve actually done it myself (again, at Dave’s!), and it’s great.

Same goes for the ACS Eva Leva, and, in all honesty, I’m sure all the other machines you listed are very capable of excellent microfoam too. That’s the least of your worries!

Cuprajake

The steam tip on the Bianca is really good for steaming.

I believe even the USA version now has fast heat up according to java Jim.

All of those machines will do you well, all have good temp management.

sacguy71

Ah man hard choice!

Eiffel

From an ease of use perspective (quick warm up, intuitive user interface with simple to interpret feedback, temperature adjustment, and routine maintenance/clean up, etc.), as well as flexibility (pre infusion pressure and duration, temperature range, etc.), the Evo Leva is hard to beat… it offers all the benefits of a traditional lever profile, while allowing to play around it… and there are many valuable customisation options available at purchase (from colours to steam/hot water location and wand design)

The choice of aftermarket accessories is more limited than with 58mm machines, but the basics are well covered.

Reliability has been good (considering that the first Evos are only around 18 month old), and I’m not sure it is a differentiating factor (acknowledging that you may have more trained service technicians in the field than for the other brands)

Rob1

The LMLM stands out to me as the one to avoid. Overpriced and old tech. Evo Leva would be the one for me.

No machine will produce good microfoam, that’s all down to your technique. They’re all capable of it.

chlorox

Another choice for next generafion lever machine is the Nurri L-type Leva…

Ernie1

I’ve just switched from a Bianca to a LMLM.

I don’t really understand the disdain for the Linea Mini. Almost feels frowned upon to buy one. It’s expensive, sure, but as with any other luxury purchase - cars, bikes, Swiss watches, furniture, sometimes the spec sheet isn’t the only selling point.

Firstly, I can’t fault the Bianca. It’s a pretty much flawless machine that in my opinion is one of the nicest looking E61s. Mine was faultless in the year I had it and if I had the money/space I’d have both.

However, what I can say now having owned both-

Bianca build quality is great, LMLM is better. It feels more robust with heavier duty metal parts, especially the case. In a home setting I’m not sure how much this really matters but it feels more solid.

Steam power is very good on the Bianca but another level on the LM. First time I used the Linea steam the milk went all over the floor… go figure.

Hard to disagree the Bianca is the ‘better’ machine though, which is why I’m not referring to my LM as an ‘upgrade’.

dfk41

Ernie1 Can I ask you a question. This comes from someone who has owned a GS3 auto. If a proficient barista presented you with three cups of coffee as a blind taste test, would you be able to pick out the one made on the LMLM consistently?
At the end of the day, the machine you own simply makes coffee from whatever you put in. You are responsible for the bean, the grind level, the puck prep etc etc. If you have a really expensive commercial oven and put some stewing steak into it, no matter how many buttons you press you do not get a fillet steak out!
The pleasure of owning a machine is quite simply that….ownership. Long may you enjoy your machine matey!
PS I kept my GS3 4 weeks!

DavecUK

Ernie1 I think La Marzocco machines are incredibly well made and will make coffee no better or worse than any other well set up 2K ish prosumer machine on a point and shoot basis. Sometimes La Marzocco can overcomplicate things e.g. some group mechanisms, leva x etc , which increases cost, sometimes massively, for little or no gain. The LMLM fortunately doesn’t suffer from that.

Parts and La Marzocco approved servicing are expensive (think BMW Vs Ford). But they are very high quality machines designed to last a lifetime.

Personal opinion only, compared to the interiors the cases are relatively crude and unattractive, something I think they should improve considering their price point.

Buying one is not about the latest greatest tech, sheer performance, or low total cost of ownership….The best analogy I can give is my Christopher Ward SH21diver watch. 5 day automatic movement, day date only, Chronometer certified to around 1.3s per day. I could arguably get a watch costing less than £50 which would be far more accurate with more, and better fuctions, but it wouldn’t be the same!

hornbyben

Ernie1 I suspect the feeling of disdain is a counter to the elevated status the LMLM holds, and the perception that they’ll give better coffee than a cheaper machine.

Personally I think they look gorgeous, and would make a great addition to any kitchen. They’re also clearly very well made, and able to make loads of back to back coffees (it is a commercial unit after all). At the end of the day, it comes down to what someone is after. I like to tinker, and usually am only making a single coffee, so the large boilers would be an inefficient use of energy, and for the price I’d want more control of the brewing variables, such as more advanced profiling.

Everyone’s money is their own to spend though, and while the coffee might not taste better, if you enjoy using it and it brings a smile to your face everyone you look at it, a LMLM may well be good value for you.

If only you could get the features of a Decent in a LMLM body, then you really would be on for a winner (at least for me).

I’m looking forward to seeing some pictures of yours and how you get on with it.

Doram

dfk41 an I ask you a question. This comes from someone who has owned a GS3 auto. If a proficient barista presented you with three cups of coffee as a blind taste test, would you be able to pick out the one made on the LMLM consistently?

Can’t you ask the same question about any machine above a certain level? Or, with a car analogy, isn’t it the same as asking someone if, once they are at their destination, they can consistently say which car got them there?

Don’t get me wrong - my coffee machine (and car) is at the lower end (at least around here) of what can make good coffee, and I have no desire to upgrade for luxury. However, if someone can drive an expensive car when driving a cheaper car can get them to the same destination, then why would it be different for a coffee machine?

MediumRoastSteam

Doram - equally, to dfk’s point, if we all make a cup of coffee with some box standard dark roasts with a LMLM, a V Evo, a MaraX, an Elizabeth, and a Bianca, would we consistently be able to tell where the beverage comes from? I doubt it.

For me, It’s all due to the pleasure of owning a bit of kit we are proud of and enjoy every day. The rest is relative.

Ernie1

Fair points and I appreciate the perspectives.

@dfk41 100% would not be able to distinguish the different coffees. I’d happily admit even after two days of ownership I’m not even yet making coffee as good as I had on the Bianca.

I’m wary of using too many motorbike analogies as I talk about bikes a lot on a coffee forum but this is all coming from someone who’s owned a number of Harleys. Bikes that in a similar vain make absolutely no sense on paper. Hugely overpriced, comparatively slow, terrible handling, marmite looks, expensive to service. But I had a blast riding and owning them over the years.

It’s definitely the joy of ownership. I don’t have Instagram or a YouTube channel or anything so I’ve got nobody to impress other than me!

With that said, I’ll gladly take some pictures on Monday. I’m waiting for the bottomless PF holder to arrive as Bella Barista had sold out.

On a related note, I went to Bella Barista to collect it and what a great place! Really friendly staff and an impressive selection of stuff! This is the fourth machine I’ve bought from them and they’ve always been incredible.

Needless to say I won’t be going for the £700 walnut accent kit…

@DavecUK that’s a very nice watch you have. I’ve been slightly tempted to start a watch thread here but given how catastrophically expensive a rabbit hole that can be, I thought it might be risky!

DavecUK

And yet today I’m wearing my 20 year old, fake steel worn of the plastic lugs, scratched plastic watch glass…super accurate Casio solar atomic 🤣

Total cost of ownership £2 per annum…up to now.

DavecUK

Or, out of all the machines I have, using the simple Puristika

mathof2

The suggestion that espressos made with all reasonably competent machines taste the same goes against the perception that lever machines make “softer” coffees and that profiling machines allow one to get the best out of difficult-to-extract light roasts.

The car analogy of all cars getting their occupants to the same destination only holds true if the road is smooth. There are places where only a 4×4 will get you to your destination at all.

DavecUK

mathof2 I was talking about standard machines, not advanced levers or pressure profiling.

E.g I believe an Evo shot to be astounding, great thermal control and the je ne quois of the LSM lever group. Hard to match, impossible to beat. If my Alpha was still working, I’d be using it.