So my new Flair espresso maker arrived today in the post and I put it through first test. Had to use a lot of hand pressure to get stable 5-9 bars pressure but shot came out amazing lots of crema and fun too. Now I want a more powerful lever based machine that has powerful steam wand for making lattes. Question: on fancy lever machines like the Bezerra Strega and Profitec 800, does the lever process work the same or does the machine help power your press when pulling a shot similar to how power steering makes driving a car easier than old cars with no power steering? [URL=https://i.imgur.com/E5A6RQr.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/E5A6RQr.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Congrats on the Flair they are clever levers and it looks like you are off to a flying start. The big differences between the standard Flair range and the bigger brothers include an automatically heated and temperature stable group head, a steam wand and a spring loaded lever as opposed to the Flair or La Pavoni, Strietman etc which are "direct" levers. The lever on spring loaded machines is pulled down to start pre infusion and then released in the upward direction where the springs do the work that you are required to do with a direct lever, that of applying pressure to extract the espresso. Worth adding the Nurri Leva S.A. to your list of potential lever machines.

@"tompoland"#p28437 oh wow now I really want to get a fancy spring lever machine instead of another E61 semi auto machine! Experimenting with flavor profiles and the tactile feel of levers is really fun and cool compared to pressing a button on semi autos. I’m thinking of ordering an ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva from Italy or getting a Profitec 800 or Bezzera Strega now. Maybe for my Christmas gift to myself as I now have a good sized kitchen to fit one. That giant lever is like a massive phallic symbol and needs lot of counter space so it would be the centerpiece of my kitchen. I’ll keep my Rocket Cellini of course since it’s getting new gaskets and a new pump. Nurri Leva looks amazing as well. The USD is strong now against euro so makes it easier for me to afford one now. I like the Dalla Corte Mina as well but paying almost 10k for a machine is hard for me to stomach as home barista.

@"sacguy71"#p28438 Bear in mind that 'older' spring lever machines like the Profitec or the Bezzera are far less temperature stable than the 'new' ACS or Nurri, particularly if you need/want/like to pull sequential shots and/or you use steam/make milk drinks. These posts may be interesting reading: https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/171-bezzera-strega/12 https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/10-acs-vesuvius-evo-leva/1584 I don't think anyone on the forum here has a Profitec 800, but it is the oldest of the lot in terms of design, and, while the boiler's temperature is PID-controlled, the group is a dipper with all its inherent temperature regulation problems. At UK prices, while I can understand the appeal of the Strega if budget is a stretch, I really find the Profitec is poor value-for-money vs. the ACS or the Nurri.

@"CoyoteOldMan"#p28443 useful information tx. Did not know that about the older machines.

@"sacguy71"#p28438 - there’s also the Londinium machines if you fancy a lever machine. Although it’s 58mm group - so VST baskets, tampers etc and other accessories will fit, there’s no measurement and feedback like the ACS machine. The ACS machine, sporting a La San Marco style group (which is 54mm I think) has a heated group, two boilers (steam/hot water, brew) and temperature control and monitors for each of them, so all individually controlled, as well as a pressure gauge at the group. The Londinium machine has none of it, so it’s all guess work and “magic” as you have no idea of what pressure or temperature your coffee is being extracted at. It’s said to be very temperature stable (at god knows which temperature, mind) but you’ll struggle to find measured real world evidence to back those claims up. The same goes for the other two machines to an extent (Profitec, Bezzera). With the ACS machine, it’s all there in front of you.

@"MediumRoastSteam"#p28516 so how about the less expensive Italian made Ponte Vecchio level espresso machines like the Lusso ? There is a Youtube espresso lever guy who swears by them as user friendly for n00bs to lever espresso making. Plus way less expensive too. Link below: https://pontevecchiosrl.it/en/e-shop/lever-coffee-machine-lusso-i/ Videos of it look solid and upgrade from my Flair machine.

@"sacguy71"#p28582 A Ponte Vecchio is an upgrade from a Flair in the sense that it provides a boiler and a steam wand. From a thermal management point of view... it remains a heat exchanger machine, like a Strega (which is priced at about the same level, BTW - at least in Europe).

@"CoyoteOldMan"#p28586 good to know and never got a response from Ponte Vecchio. At least ACS responded to my questions on an espresso machine as did Salvatore who builds custom lever machines. I think that at this point in time since I get my Rocket Cellini machine back today with new pump and gaskets that I rather wait and save up for my dream lever pump machine. Will see about Londinium R24, Salvatore custom, ACS Vesuvius, and Nurri for dream espresso maker. For now will probably invest in few tools and better scale.

> @"CoyoteOldMan"#p28586 From a thermal management point of view… it remains a heat exchanger machine, like a Strega (which is priced at about the same level, BTW - at least in Europe). I though the PV machines were dippers (like a Pavoni, or a Cremina) (but I don’t know, I never seen one in the flesh) > @"sacguy71"#p28582 so how about the less expensive Italian made Ponte Vecchio level espresso machines like the Lusso I actually never seen or used one. All the information I have on them is from watching videos, and, from what I gather, they are not the easiest things in the world to tame!

First test Flair manual lever machine

MediumRoastSteam

sacguy71 For now will probably invest in few tools and better scale.

Wise words right there sir! 👍👌 - enjoy the journey!

CoyoteOldMan

MediumRoastSteam I though the PV machines were dippers

Good point; it could be - I’m going by the description on the PV website:

Preheated group by the circulation of hot water from the boiler always ready for use at the ideal temperature

Which I interpreted as a termosyphon, and thus more likely an HX, but on re-reading it could also apply to a dipper… all we really know is that it is single boiler, and temperature regulated by a pressurestat:

Automatic operation controlled by the pressure switch

MediumRoastSteam

CoyoteOldMan but on re-reading it could also apply to a dipper…

Hmmm….

Check at around 1:30

I see the boiler is filled directly, and the water then feeds the group. But the guy in the video refers that to a heat exchanger…. Which I don’t get, because the water comes from inside the boiler and only from inside the boiler, so it’s not really exchanging anything.

Don’t think the machine has a pump either, neither a (cold) water tank.

Hard to determine from that alone though.

DavecUK

I reviewed a Ponteveccio Lever machine a long time ago now, but I remember it well I still have on file somewhere, I’ll try to remember to dig it up.

hornbyben

sacguy71 For now will probably invest in few tools and better scale.

Don’t forget better coffee too. The machine is the sexy bit granted, but it’s just a dispenser of hot water, it can’t create flavours, or magic great coffee from naff beans.

sacguy71

hornbyben yea agree. Well I have to finish the beans on hand

sacguy71

MediumRoastSteam yeah not clear to me either and rather save now for better machine. Have Rocket for lattes and Flair to tide me over. So maybe end of year or next year get a nicer lever to complement my setup and Niche single doser grinder too.

CoyoteOldMan

MediumRoastSteam He does say at 4:35 that it doesn’t have a heat exchanger (“… unlike a single boiler semi-automatic or heat exchanger I don’t need to purge water or even flush to warm the group head …”), so it sounds like it is a termosyphon connected to the boiler, and brew water comes from the boiler too. If the boiler is at 1.2 bar (3:31), this means boiler water at ₁₀₅ °C, which is hot, but still tolerable since there will be a few degrees of loss until the water reaches the coffee. It’s kind-of-a-saturated group…

Judging from the cap on top of the boiler, there is no pump, connection to mains or anything - just wait for the boiler to cool, and fill it with fresh water.

DavecUK

Was it this thread where people were asking about the Ponte Veccio Spring lever? I did do a review, userguide and I have a load of photos (external and internal) as well.

I can turn it into an article if people want?

CoyoteOldMan

DavecUK Always appreciated!

DavecUK

In my review I said it has a thermosyphon was not a dipper. I double checked the photos and that was correct. It also had an extra thick front plate, to prevent overheating.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - OK… It has a syphon and it’s not a dipper. But is it an HX?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam OK… It has a syphon and it’s not a dipper. But is it an HX?

Well.……no, not really.

It uses the entire boiler as an HX tube….e.g. an open HX as the expression I once heard goes 🤣

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