Hi All I searched this Forum for “water recipe” and did not have significant success. Searching for “water” has many (many) hits, but they cover a wide variety of topics. So at the risk of being repetitive, may I ask: What specific water recipe or recipes do you use for your espresso coffee? If more than one, which recipe in which situation? For each recipe may I ask: What specific compounds do you use (how many mg of x in 1 litre of RO water)? When do you use this recipe? (for which beans or roasts)? What is its impact on taste? Please be specific. What is its impact on extraction yield? What is its impact on scaling? On corrosion? PS Any particular suggestions for water recipes that work well for decaf?

What's 10% RO? Most people will use one recipe. It's not easy to change water in espresso machines with brew boilers, people who use an HX or something that doesn't have boilers like the flare may do it easily.

@"Rob1"#p28523 Thanks Rob1. Good point. By 10% RO I meant RO water at 10% TDS. In other words, water that is almost as pure as distilled water. Anyway I edited that out, to just refer to RO water. And so …. what’s your latest water recipe preference?

Changes in water chemistry have no effect on extraction yield, only flavour and scaling/corrosion potential. If the coffee has muted acidity drop the alkalinity, if it is overly bright, try more alkalinity (assuming nominal extraction & no other obvious faults.) Honesty, I would finalise your water then spend much more time & effort on the beans, grind & ratio, (Unless of course you are starting a business remineralising water for espresso?)

@"MWJB"#p28546 Thanks for the good comments and suggestions, MWJB. If you do not mind sharing, what water base and additives recipe do you use ? What do you like about it? As an FYI, I read (in Barista Hustle) that (all other factors being equal), increases in magnesium cause increased extraction. I’ll post the BH quote in a moment.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28559 Correction: Increases in water hardness produce increases in extraction. A couple of recipes that I saw on BH targeted somewhat greater hardness, for use in espresso.

_“Pretty Hard Water: 35.1 g buffer 126.1 g magnesium concentrate 838.9 g distilled/ultrapure water This recipe begins the ascent in water ‘hardness’, probably better suited to espresso. It is also a good choice of water for filter coffee recipes that require a very short contact time. This is starting to grab a lot out from the coffee, so brew recipes would need need to either slow down or speed up the brew time, via grind adjustments, and shorten or increase your beverage weight. Dependent on the roast, somewhere along those two spectra you’ll find something tasty.”_ And this: _Hard AF Water 45.2 g buffer 176.8 g magnesium concentrate 778.0 g distilled/ultrapure water This recipe pushes the mineral level to a point where_ you’re basically cranking the amp up to 11. Your brew parameters from the earlier water recipes would need to change a lot here.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28562 We thought 2 days ago, if the memory serves right, you will not be using pure RO and instead get ZeroWater and re-mineralise? Has there been a change in thinking? https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/1105-accurate-water-testing-kits/52 Please get a view of the GH and KH of your pure RO first. You can then top up with bicarbonate and go from there. I would try reading some of the water threads posted on this forum.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28559 Don't bother posting the BH info on hardness & EY, it is wrong. I like coffee, I like the coffee to drive the flavour of the drink. I focus on this, whilst using water within the recommendations for good boiler water. At the moment I use a BWT jug because in one pass I get suitable water, with no remineralisation. Previously, I remineralised by mixing 0TDS water with tap water.

@"JHCCoffee"#p28539 As MWJB has said already, hardness has no effect on extraction. There's no evidence that water with a bit of calcium or magnesium extract more from coffee than distilled water. Blind taste tests are wildly inconsistent too, with the results of some showing coffee made with distilled water tasting best, calcium muddling flavours but tasting creamy, others showing calcium being the best and fruity, others showing magnesium being sweetest and most fruity and others still saying magnesium makes coffee too bright…you get the idea. In terms of EY there's no notable difference and tests using gas chromatography show no significant difference. The biggest factor affecting flavour is alkalinity. Hardness will affect how the water tastes. People report calcium gives water a creamier mouth feel, in my experience magnesium imparts a little sweetness. This is compared to distilled with bicarbonate only added. My espresso with magnesium and bicarb is a little sweeter than just bicarb but having not done side by side tests I cannot say for sure. I just use tap water to brew immersion or syphon as it is fairly ideal, so no comparisons outside of espresso either. I don't have my recipe to hand but I use Magnesium hydroxide in carbonated water to get a concentrate of Magnesium bicarbonate, and another concentrate that will give me Sodium Bicarb to get 10mg/l Sodium. The final brew water has about 45mg/l alkalinity from bicarb and 25mg/l Magnesium as CaCO3. Using water with about 50mg/l alkalinity is a good bet and will help prevent corrosion. Adding hardness means you will get scale in a service boiler eventually without some kind of flushing routines. You might want to get an alkalinity and hardness that doesn't scale in the brew boiler (hard to descale) but be happy with descaling the service boiler, or you might want to avoid any maintenance in which case just use bicarb.

@"LMSC"#p28565 Thanks LMSC. I just bought a ZeroWater filter, just delivered today, and will soon start using it. I just read that it reduces TDS by 99.6%, so the TDS of the end result will depend upon the TDS of your tap water. So probably more like 1% TDS. Will then remineralize it, using an appropriate water recipe.

What Espresso Water Recipes Do You Prefer, When?

Rob1

What you use is really up to you, why not try magnesium sulphate and see if you like it? Or just try sodium or potassium bicarb alone?

You can use the soda stream. To be honest I’m not sure if carbonating before or after the magnesium hydroxide is added is best. You don’t want any bubbles left in the water when you’re using the concentrate so shake it, stir it or whatever, just get the excess CO2 out once all of the magnesium hydroxide is dissolved. You might have to carbonate more than once.

There’s nothing magic about my recipe, you’ll still have to flush the service boiler and refill with “softer” water, which in my case is just distilled…

JHCCoffee

Rob1

Thanks Rob1 !

I might be wrong, but I understand that with the Lelit Elizabeth I cannot independently flush the steam or brew boilers. To flush, you run the hot water wand until it stops running. What you end up with (in your measuring cup or beaker) is the full contents of the brew boiler, followed by the contents of the steam boiler.

Both are served by the same water supply. So if I purge using ZeroWater or distilled water, I end up with that new water in both the brew and steam boilers, which would then not be the water that I want to permanently have in my boilers or brew with. So I would then have to purge a second time with my actual water recipe (inclusive of the potassium bicarb and the magnesium hydroxide).

All good. If I end up liking adding the magnesium and it is better/safer to initially purge with soft water, such as ZeroWater, and then repurge with my water recipe (bicarb and magnesium) then I will just do that.

So question: do I need to do the above described double (twice) purge, to avoid scale.

Rob1

No, I would only use bicarb in a small boiler. My recipe is fine below 135c but the Elizabeth’s service boiler can (and probably does out of neccesity? run hotter). You’d not be able to effectively flush and there’s no point flushing with distilled and then filling with remineralised.

JHCCoffee

Rob1

Thanks Rob!

I have the service boiler set to 135 C. I could dial it back to 130 C.

And yes, I have heard that the service boiler never quite flushes completely, though I suppose that the “origonal” water is eventually replaced or diluted through repeated flushing.

We want to avoid scaling and corrosion. However if adding magnesium improves flavour, I would consider doing that as long as I can avoid scaling and corrosion (pitting).

So, bottom line, would using your formula (ie adding the magnesium to the potassium bicarbonate) be safe, if we run the service boiler at say 130 or 135 C and flush regularly (say once every 2 weeks?) ??

Or too risky and just use the bicarb?

Rob1

No, two weeks wouldn’t be often enough. Bicarb only. Alternatively try alkalinity from non carbonate sources.

JHCCoffee

Rob1 Alternatively, try alkalinity from non-carbonate sources.

Any recommendations on this?

JHCCoffee

Rob1

Just curious. With your formula (the magnesium and bicarb in ZeroWater), what PH and TDS are you getting?

Rob1

I don’t have a recommendation on recipes citrates. Would probably just start by copying the TWW recipe and omitting the sodium bicarb. I don’t know what the pH and TDS is of the water I use really. pH likely close to 7, can’t remember ever testing TDS….not much point when you can calculate everything that is in the water.

JHCCoffee

CoyoteOldMan

Hi CoyoteOldMan

Have just received my API test kits (for pH, GH and KH) and will test your (now my) water recipe (ZeroWater with 80 potassium bicarbonate per litre) this weekend.

Just curious:

Are you using 0 TDS RO water or distilled water?
What TDS, pH, GH and KH are you getting with this recipe?

Thanks CoyoteOldMan

CoyoteOldMan

JHCCoffee I’m using water coming out of the ZeroWater filter, which means ionic TDS no higher than 6-8 ppm (when it reaches that value, I change the filter).

pH - I have no idea; it’s not relevant in any case, but it will be slightly alkaline, around 7.2 - 7.3
GH = 0
KH = 40
TDS = 80

chemistry works. I’m not using a test kit, because I know what I put in the water (and I trust the supplier of my bicarbonate).

JHCCoffee

CoyoteOldMan GH = 0
KH = 40
TDS = 80

Thanks CoyoteOldman!

Out of curiosity, I put these numbers in the La Marzocco
Water Calculator and got a weird answer (”corrosion intolerable”), that is obviously wrong.

I entered General Hardness as 0 ppm, KH (Alkalinity) as 40 ppm, PH as 7.2 and TDS as 80. What am doing wrong?

Maybe your KH value is dKH, in which case I would have to convert that to ppm? However the conversion factor for KH to ppm is apparently: dk * 17.86 = ppm. So 40 × 17.86 = 714 ppm, which is a nutty value. Conversion Formula

Yet another rabbit hole! Clearly I am entering something wrong or the La Morzocco app is flawed. However when enter 714 ppm alkalinity into that app, it answers “ Water Effects on Equipment - Balanced but pitting corrosion possible in presence of chlorides”. As we have no chlorides, the app is happy.
.
I’m not at all questioning your formula or chemistry. I was simply demo-ing an app the I might use to validate any water chemistry testing that I might do.

LMSC

JHCCoffee Your KH is obviously dKH, which (as per the API table in the manual) converts to 714 ppm using a factor of 17.9 ppm per 1 dKH.

CoyoteOldMan reported 40 mg/l. :-)

Rob1

JHCCoffee I entered General Hardness as 0 ppm, KH (Alkalinity) as 40 ppm, PH as 7.2 and TDS as 80. What am doing wrong?

Nothing. The LI will tell you there is a risk of corrosion.

JHCCoffee

Yep! Just read the API GH and KH test kit manual. Your KH is obviously dKH, which (as per the API table in the manual) converts to 714 ppm using a factor of 17.9 ppm per 1 dKH. All good!

My apologies for my chemistry ignorance, and for wasting your time on this particular post. Just learning this stuff.

CoyoteOldMan

JHCCoffee No, I’m talking of 40 ppm or mg/l - not degrees.

I don’t know what the LM calculator uses, but probably some version of the Langelier Saturation Index, which isn’t necessarily a good predictor of whether water is ‘corrosive’ (negative LSI would dissolve calcite - the corrosion effect on metals is not so directly correlatable). Plus, bear in mind that they are doing so for specific physical conditions (93 °C, 9 bar) that may or may not be those in which you actually use or keep the water - for example I’m more concerned about scaling/corrosion potential at 100/125 °C and saturation pressure (brew/service boiler) than I am about brewing water that is in contact with the machine only when brewing…

JHCCoffee

Back to making and enjoying my morning espresso. I’ve spent too much time on the water part. But thanks to you, my water is safe and not adversely affecting taste.

JHCCoffee

Just tested my potassium carbonate water with the API GH/KH and PH test kits (recipe courtesy of CoyoteOldMan , with thanks). Results are same, for both the water that I make (before pouring into the tank) and the water that exits the Lelit Elizabeth hot water tap:

KH - 3 dKH = 53.7 ppm
GH - tough to call. 2 to 3 dKH. If 2.5, then 44.8 ppm
PH - 7.6
TDS - 49

Will run these numbers through the water calculator spreadsheet when I have a moment. The Marzocco App likes it: “well balanced but pitted corrosion possible in the presence of chlorides”. However there are no chlorides in the ZeroWater.

Waiting for my order of magnesium hydroxide to arrive so that I can try out and test Rob1 ‘s recipe.

Rob1

Bearing in mind I’ve already said my recipe is not suitable for small service boilers running at high temps that you can’t independently empty….

There’s nothing adding GH to your water from the potassium bicarb. If you’re testing with a drop kit and a 5ml sample, you stop adding drops at the very first sign of a colour change (don’t wait for a “bright” colour). To get a better resolution with the test kit use a 20ml sample in a cup and keep stirring while adding one drop at a time then divide the result by 4…4 drops in 20ml = 1 drops in 5ml hence the greater accuracy of measurement. The test can only give you a range e.g a colour change at two drops means a GH between 35.7 and 53.544. Increasing the sample size makes the range less than 5mg/l.

JHCCoffee

Rob1 Bearing in mind I’ve already said my recipe is not suitable for small service boilers running at high temps that you can’t independently empty….

Thanks Rob1. I’ve read and reread @DavecUK information on flushing the service boiler Flushing the Lelit Service Boiler. If I run the hot water wand until the flow stops, it will replace almost all of the service boiler water with fresh water from the tank. I can also flush the brew boiler by running 250 ml water through the grouhead.

So if it turns out that I really like your water (ie has a discernible and favourable impact on taste), then I might use it, and presumably be safe by flushing as above once per week. I could also flush RO water through once every 2 weeks.

Fyi, I now run my service boiler at 125C (vs 135C initially) to allow a slightly slower milk frothing process and thereby the time to work the milk for the thicker micro foam I like in a cappuccino. Would the above be safe? @MediumRoastSteam @Rob1

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee Fyi, I now run my service boiler at 250c

Do you mean 250F? That is 121C. There’s no detriment, apart from a lower pre-infusion pressure if you use steam pre-infusion. If you are happy with it, then all is good.

Rob1

JHCCoffee

If you only lose 20ml of water as steam every day for a week you’ll be fine flushing once per week. That’s for a service boiler at 121c with my recipe. Quite wasteful though. As I’ve already said, flushing RO won’t do anything if you just immediately replace it with the water in the tank. If you don’t then you’re pulling shots with RO. You need to know how much water you’re going to be using to make the steam, could well be more than 20ml.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam

Sorry, yes 125C vs 135C previously.

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