Hi, all. My Lelit Elizabeth v3 is around 3 months old now, and has started to behave a little strangely with regard to pressure. If I put in the blind basket, then engage the pump (no preinfusion, and it's been an hour or so since last use), the pressure spikes up to around 11 bar, then drops quickly to around 10 and holds. If I then do this again very soon after the first time, the pressure will only go to maybe 9.5 bars and hold. Then on the third such run, and all subsequent runs in this sequence, it will just go to 9 and hold there. Something very similar happens with coffee in the portafilter, though the pressures there decline during the shot as expected. I have found on other message boards that a few others have also had this problem, but I haven't really found any solution. One person suggested adjusting the OPV, which I had already done long before this issue arose to set it to 9 from the factory default of 10. I did adjust it again just to see, and it did not seem to help. In fact, when I adjusted it I set it to around 8.5 bars (as the pressure it gives after several runs in a row with the blind basket at least), but the next day it was back to its previous level and behavior, as if the OPV adjustment had undone itself. Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely?

> @"Pygmalion"#p1227 Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely? it's not difficult, but it's very unlikely that the expansion valve (OPV) has gone bad. If it had you would probably be getting other sumptoms. For the OPV to cause the behaviour you're describing, it would have to be stiffer and open later for the first shot, then open a bit further when the pressure drops to 10 bar. Then as you do more shots…it is loosening up. That' not really normal behaviour for that type of valve. If it was sticky, then usually it would jam up on other shots, possibly randomly…it's also very hard for it to stick. As you can see, the only bit that moves is the pad, held by the spring against the port. There is not much to stick or jam. The only par that could is the relatively loose fitting metal bit with a pad. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png[/IMG] From your description, the behaviour seems to follow a consistent pattern, which would indicate another cause. I'm just not sure what at the moment?

@"DavecUK"#p1229 Thanks for the detailed reply DavecUK (BTW, I'm using your advanced parameters for the Elizabeth; thanks!). I wonder what could cause an issue like this, then? Could it be a temperature thing? That is, the first shot might be hotter (if I haven't done a purge, which I often don't), then subsequent ones in somewhat rapid succession are a little cooler, etc. Would this make the pressure behave in this way? My understanding of the OPV is that it sets an upper limit on the pressure, and that it should never rise above this if the OPV is working correctly. Of course, that's only the pressure at the OPV itself, which is not directly what the pressure gauge is reading (pump pressure?). So, if the OPV is not the problem, then it could be the gauge I guess, or it could be that somehow the pressure in the system where the gauge is reading is higher than the OPV in some strange, consistent-ish way. Anyone else having similar behavior?

@"Pygmalion"#p1238 In a rotary pumped machine, odd things can happen because the water goes into a sealed system through a 1 way valve. The expansion valve in that sealed system is set to 12 to 14 bar. In your system it's the expansion valve as you correctly say controlling the pressure, so there is an upper limit….not really sure…am cogitatingt. I even though perhaps air in the capillary tube, but that wouldn't case the problem you're getting.

Morning all, I noticed this morning that I have the exact same thing happen! Preheated for about 40 mins, purged for 3-5 seconds out of the hot water tap, waited a minute or 2, puled a shot with a 10 second preinfusion at 2 bar, after the 10 seconds it shot up to 10-10.5 bar before dropping back to 8.5. Subsequent shots only reached 8.5 bar after PI (I did another 2, one for my wife, the other for 'science', aka my second double before 0700 what could go wrong). The strange thing is, the timings were all exaclty the same, 16g in, 33 out in 33 seconds. I'm wondering if it's more of an issue with the display then with the valve? I've possibly got some friends coming over tomorrow for a pre/post run brew so if I do more then 3 shots I'll pay close attention to the needle and report back...

I've thought about what might be happening by imagineering how I this could be created if one wanted to do so. and looking at the way the Elizabeths were made (factory photos of first production run…I can't see how it can happen, or be made to happen, unless i'm missing something. The repositioning of the expansion valve is still within the sealed brew area, and they changed it for a much better and reachable/adjustable valve. The V2 I had which I modified to a V3 still; has the old valve, as you can see from my review photos, and hydraulically is in essentially the same position (if not physically) https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/ So here is the image, just to orient people 1. Expansion valve controlling brew pressure max 2. Manometer take-off for pressure gauge 3. Autofill solenoid for steam boiler, opens to fill steam boiler 4. Exit port from ring group to vent solenoid 5. Vent solenoid, opens at end of shot. As you can see 1, 2 and 4 , all form part of the sealed brew circuit. The expansion valve is directly connected to the boiler, whatever pressure is experienced by the coffee, the same pressure is seen by 1, 2 and 4. The other numbered components take no part in this. The component under the autofill solenoid (3) is what does the steam preinfusion and incidently takes part in the clever way the machine does hot water. This component can't have any impact as it still only feeds into the same sealed brew circuit controlled by the expansion valve. This means any thermal expansion of water would be controlled ultimately by the expansion valve. My only possible conclusion is perhaps a shock wave caused by any slight airspace and water hammer due to closing of valves? **Perhaps someone could try switching of bloom phase and steam preinfusion, just have a straight shot…then see if it happens** [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/B9miMjc.jpeg]

Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped.

> @"Del_UK"#p1323 Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped. Everything off, probably even steam boiler (even though it shouldn't matter)…but certainly both preinfusion functions (one is referred to as bloom phase). Effectively turning it into a dumb machine. If it still does it, more evidence for a water hammer effect due to air…well that's the theory. ***P.S. If you turn off steam boiler…wait until it's below 100C***

Thanks for all the continued feedback and interesting information, everyone. Also glad (sort of) to hear I'm not alone. DavecUK, this happens even when using no preinfusion of any kind, and also with steam boiler off and cool.

I will keep an eye on mine. I never noticed this. But then again, I only have one coffee in the morning, and one in the afternoon. If there’s any testing I could do, please just let me know. 👍

@"Pygmalion"#p1333 If that is the case, I can only assume it must be a transient water hammer effect type of thing due to air? I would expect it to have no impact on the shot. Any chance of video of it doing it?

Lelit Elizabeth pressure spiking/inconsistent

drdre89

MediumRoastSteam will see how we go with the Silvia Pro X. Am awaiting for the black one to be in stock, as well as the refund for my Elizabeth.

The Silvia Pro X has variable soft infusion which I believe is similar to the Elizabeths bloom infusion? … Yes the pressure gauge I believe measures the pressure at the grouphead instead of the pump and comes preconfigured with just over 9 bars of pressure on a blind shot.

MediumRoastSteam

drdre89 - yes. The Silvia bloom pre-infusion seems similar to the Elizabeth, but I’m not sure if the Silvia has a pump run - which, if not, will barely get the top of your puck wet, which is rather gimmicky.

The Elizabeth measures the pressure at the back of the group, FYI. See arrows.

In there, you can see how I eliminated the X fitting.

DavecUK

Just as an addition, not part of this spoecific discussion. I have added an audit log module to Flarum, this may well allow me to see what happened on a specific post, if this happens again. I didn’t install it before because of the additional server loading it’s going to generate…

I’ll keep the audit log on for a while and if we don’t get any more problems, I will remove it.

drdre89

Got my refund for the Elizabeth. Now waiting for the Silvia Pro X in black to be available to purchase. I will let you know how it compares to the Elizabeth.

I did love the Elizabeth and it’s features however the faulty OPV and interaction with the retailer left a sour taste in my mouth … and I’m not talking sour espresso 😜

I do hope that I kicked enough butts with the retailer/distributor to let them know about the issue so it’s well known, so if other ppl have the same issue as me, they will know exactly how to fix it next time, rather than blaming the customer for user error.

soundwave1

drdre89 I think i got my V3 unit from the same retailer as you, and not having much luck getting a fix for the 1st shot overshoot, ‘normal behaviour for these machines’ they say.

JoeW

So I read this, adn thought oh thats interesting, but I’m fine. Now having played with the backflush basket, its the same fault. First shot, over 12, seconf shot, between 8 and 9. Leave for an hour or so, not on standby and again the first shot is up to 12. Not just as high as the first shot of the day.

Mine is a May 21 from BB.

DavecUK

JoeW Mine is a May 21 from BB.

I expect they will sort you out with the revised expansion valve…which personally I would fit myself rather than ship the machine.

dmau9600

@DavecUK - my vendor has been giving me the runaround for a couple months now. Do you have recommendations or tips on any alternate expansion valves or parts I could order to resolve this on my own?

Are there generic/standard expansion valves I could order online and just swap out?

DavecUK

dmau9600 Yes, very cheaply too…just do me a favour and give me a very clear photo with the top removed as I may have 2 solutions.

dmau9600

DavecUK

Here you go boss, really appreciate any tips!

DavecUK

dmau9600 Check the size of the valve thread to see if it’s ¼ inch, if so, this should work. and hopefully the silicon hose should fit.

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/Spaziale-Expansion-Valve-%c3%b8-14M-10-14-bar---01626/m-4308.aspx

colamj53x

Hi, seeing the same issue (reducing pressure helped a bit). In terms of sourcing a replacement OPV from Lelit, is that possible? or is it a case of looking for an OPV that will fit and use that?

dmau9600

colamj53x I’d recommend working through the vendor you purchased the machine through first. It’s taken mine a couple months, but I just got notification they will be getting Lelit OPVs in soon. If that doesn’t fix the problem, I’ll try the non-Lelit OPV Dave linked above.

They’re inexpensive parts, so if you’re in any hurry to get it fixed I’d just order the generic version now while you wait for the Lelit part.

jcb1973

I think that’s Dave’s suggested part (non Lelit) above - the Lelit one will be (I think)

https://www.elektros.it/ch/en/Lelit_spare_parts_PL62/lelit_mc931_overpressure_valve.html

jcb1973

Here’s some codes I found on this page:

https://comisocoffee.com/products/lelit-elizabeth-espresso-machine

The item code for the new expansion valve placed above the coffee boiler is MC931. The old expansion valve placed near the pump was Item MC097.
The item code for the new anti-vacuum valve is MC9700052.
The item code for the new temperature probe is MC9600092 and the item code for the new level probe is MC96000105.

jcb1973

Kaffekompagniet in Stockholm changed my OPV yesterday with a Lelit supplied replacement part - problem is 100% resolved. The machine even seems a little quieter…. (I could be imagining that).

They also made me a very good cappuccino with Gringo Radical: https://en.gringonordic.se/product-page/radical-espresso) and gifted me a cool tin to store my beans (by way of “sorry about that”). That was a lovely gesture.

jcb1973

The other thing I have noticed is the pre infusion seems much more discrete - it seems to have a much clearer beginning and end, more precise. I guess this makes sense with a valve that is working more accurately…

MediumRoastSteam

jcb1973 is the pre infusion seems much more discrete - it seems to have a much clearer beginning and end, more precise.

Do you mean beginning and end of pre-infusion?

jcb1973

MediumRoastSteam Yes, exactly that.

MediumRoastSteam

jcb1973 - Interesting. Because the pressure during pre-infusion is low (2-3 bar max), it’s unlikely the OPV has any part on that flow, and should remain closed. Interesting observation though, which makes me wonder whether there’s more to it?

jcb1973

I think I figured it out. The shop changed my pre infusion settings (looks like they actually did a factory reset), so it was different to what I remembered, and nothing to do with changed OPV valve :-)

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