Hi, all. My Lelit Elizabeth v3 is around 3 months old now, and has started to behave a little strangely with regard to pressure. If I put in the blind basket, then engage the pump (no preinfusion, and it's been an hour or so since last use), the pressure spikes up to around 11 bar, then drops quickly to around 10 and holds. If I then do this again very soon after the first time, the pressure will only go to maybe 9.5 bars and hold. Then on the third such run, and all subsequent runs in this sequence, it will just go to 9 and hold there. Something very similar happens with coffee in the portafilter, though the pressures there decline during the shot as expected. I have found on other message boards that a few others have also had this problem, but I haven't really found any solution. One person suggested adjusting the OPV, which I had already done long before this issue arose to set it to 9 from the factory default of 10. I did adjust it again just to see, and it did not seem to help. In fact, when I adjusted it I set it to around 8.5 bars (as the pressure it gives after several runs in a row with the blind basket at least), but the next day it was back to its previous level and behavior, as if the OPV adjustment had undone itself. Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely?

> @"Pygmalion"#p1227 Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely? it's not difficult, but it's very unlikely that the expansion valve (OPV) has gone bad. If it had you would probably be getting other sumptoms. For the OPV to cause the behaviour you're describing, it would have to be stiffer and open later for the first shot, then open a bit further when the pressure drops to 10 bar. Then as you do more shots…it is loosening up. That' not really normal behaviour for that type of valve. If it was sticky, then usually it would jam up on other shots, possibly randomly…it's also very hard for it to stick. As you can see, the only bit that moves is the pad, held by the spring against the port. There is not much to stick or jam. The only par that could is the relatively loose fitting metal bit with a pad. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png[/IMG] From your description, the behaviour seems to follow a consistent pattern, which would indicate another cause. I'm just not sure what at the moment?

@"DavecUK"#p1229 Thanks for the detailed reply DavecUK (BTW, I'm using your advanced parameters for the Elizabeth; thanks!). I wonder what could cause an issue like this, then? Could it be a temperature thing? That is, the first shot might be hotter (if I haven't done a purge, which I often don't), then subsequent ones in somewhat rapid succession are a little cooler, etc. Would this make the pressure behave in this way? My understanding of the OPV is that it sets an upper limit on the pressure, and that it should never rise above this if the OPV is working correctly. Of course, that's only the pressure at the OPV itself, which is not directly what the pressure gauge is reading (pump pressure?). So, if the OPV is not the problem, then it could be the gauge I guess, or it could be that somehow the pressure in the system where the gauge is reading is higher than the OPV in some strange, consistent-ish way. Anyone else having similar behavior?

@"Pygmalion"#p1238 In a rotary pumped machine, odd things can happen because the water goes into a sealed system through a 1 way valve. The expansion valve in that sealed system is set to 12 to 14 bar. In your system it's the expansion valve as you correctly say controlling the pressure, so there is an upper limit….not really sure…am cogitatingt. I even though perhaps air in the capillary tube, but that wouldn't case the problem you're getting.

Morning all, I noticed this morning that I have the exact same thing happen! Preheated for about 40 mins, purged for 3-5 seconds out of the hot water tap, waited a minute or 2, puled a shot with a 10 second preinfusion at 2 bar, after the 10 seconds it shot up to 10-10.5 bar before dropping back to 8.5. Subsequent shots only reached 8.5 bar after PI (I did another 2, one for my wife, the other for 'science', aka my second double before 0700 what could go wrong). The strange thing is, the timings were all exaclty the same, 16g in, 33 out in 33 seconds. I'm wondering if it's more of an issue with the display then with the valve? I've possibly got some friends coming over tomorrow for a pre/post run brew so if I do more then 3 shots I'll pay close attention to the needle and report back...

I've thought about what might be happening by imagineering how I this could be created if one wanted to do so. and looking at the way the Elizabeths were made (factory photos of first production run…I can't see how it can happen, or be made to happen, unless i'm missing something. The repositioning of the expansion valve is still within the sealed brew area, and they changed it for a much better and reachable/adjustable valve. The V2 I had which I modified to a V3 still; has the old valve, as you can see from my review photos, and hydraulically is in essentially the same position (if not physically) https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/ So here is the image, just to orient people 1. Expansion valve controlling brew pressure max 2. Manometer take-off for pressure gauge 3. Autofill solenoid for steam boiler, opens to fill steam boiler 4. Exit port from ring group to vent solenoid 5. Vent solenoid, opens at end of shot. As you can see 1, 2 and 4 , all form part of the sealed brew circuit. The expansion valve is directly connected to the boiler, whatever pressure is experienced by the coffee, the same pressure is seen by 1, 2 and 4. The other numbered components take no part in this. The component under the autofill solenoid (3) is what does the steam preinfusion and incidently takes part in the clever way the machine does hot water. This component can't have any impact as it still only feeds into the same sealed brew circuit controlled by the expansion valve. This means any thermal expansion of water would be controlled ultimately by the expansion valve. My only possible conclusion is perhaps a shock wave caused by any slight airspace and water hammer due to closing of valves? **Perhaps someone could try switching of bloom phase and steam preinfusion, just have a straight shot…then see if it happens** [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/B9miMjc.jpeg]

Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped.

> @"Del_UK"#p1323 Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped. Everything off, probably even steam boiler (even though it shouldn't matter)…but certainly both preinfusion functions (one is referred to as bloom phase). Effectively turning it into a dumb machine. If it still does it, more evidence for a water hammer effect due to air…well that's the theory. ***P.S. If you turn off steam boiler…wait until it's below 100C***

Thanks for all the continued feedback and interesting information, everyone. Also glad (sort of) to hear I'm not alone. DavecUK, this happens even when using no preinfusion of any kind, and also with steam boiler off and cool.

I will keep an eye on mine. I never noticed this. But then again, I only have one coffee in the morning, and one in the afternoon. If there’s any testing I could do, please just let me know. 👍

@"Pygmalion"#p1333 If that is the case, I can only assume it must be a transient water hammer effect type of thing due to air? I would expect it to have no impact on the shot. Any chance of video of it doing it?

Lelit Elizabeth pressure spiking/inconsistent

europa

@DavecUK

Existing OPV pics here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/diDkswQL2cn3ZX5o7

This is DEFINITIVE proof that there IS a new style of OPV. And that my retailer has been talking absolute rubbish.

This existing OPV was fitted by BB just one month ago! What a waste of time sending it back to them.

europa

Question now is: given the innards are different, should i also replace the housing? @DavecUK

DavecUK

europa Yes, replace the housing.

JahLaza

Just change the whole unit, they’re different diameters. Simply unscrew the valve housing once the pipe is removed from the other side, use some ptfe tape when installing the new valve

soundwave1

drdre89 I think i got my V3 unit from the same retailer as you, and not having much luck getting a fix for the 1st shot overshoot, ‘normal behaviour for these machines’ they say.

drdre89

soundwave1 I think after i complained and got my money back, they now know of the issue but have gone with the standard “Normal behavior, working as intended from the manufacturer”.

Possibly because its too complex for them to fix, as getting the ‘end consumer’ to replace their own OPV is not good business.

soundwave1

drdre89 They didn’t act like they knew of the issue, and worse, they basically said that for this price/class of machine, behaviour like this is expected. This was in response to me saying that friends with other Lelits and Rockets do not have such spikes in pressure from first to second shot.

Im relatively fresh into my upgraded espresso journey, but does that seem reasonable? $2.5K AUD for a new machine and things like spiking pressure are to be accepted?

drdre89

soundwave1 $2.5K AUD for a new machine and things like spiking pressure are to be accepted?

no, it shouldn’t be accepted. I’m pretty sure they know of the issue, just playing dumb.

I have a Rancilio silvia pro x (similar price) now and the OPV has been perfect every time, no spikes. Hopefully you can get your OPV resolved, many great replies in this thread about trying to get it resolved

europa

soundwave1

All sounds very familiar: “not precision instruments, blah blah blah”. As you will see from my posts, my retailer was adamant that there is no new type of OPV, even specifically pointing it out when sending me a new one to fit myself. Having taken it apart and confirming it is very different to the old one internally, i now know they were talking out of their backsides. For the life of me, i cannot understand why they didn’t simply unscrew a new one to compare to the old ones before telling customers such things. Especially, as i originally sent the machine back to them just six weeks ago for a replacement OPV - turns out they simply fitted an old-style one and, unsurprisingly, i still had the same issues when i got the machine back!

That said, the problem faced by retailers is that unless the manufacturer takes ownership of such issues (which LELIT doesn’t seem to have done here), they only have two options: admit there’s an issue (and repair at their own cost) or fob off their customers by putting it on LELIT (who still haven’t admitted the fault) or saying it’s normal behaviour!

DavecUK

europa That said, the problem faced by retailers is that unless the manufacturer takes ownership of such issues (which LELIT doesn’t seem to have done here), they only have two options: admit there’s an issue (and repair at their own cost) or fob off their customers by putting it on LELIT (who still haven’t admitted the fault) or saying it’s normal behaviour!

I’m not sure this bit is true….

soundwave1

europa All sounds very familiar: “not precision instruments, blah blah blah”.

Absolute hogwash isn’t it. I can handle things not being precise, but consistency is key so that I can factor in the variances.
I had to argue that if it the machine and gauge isn’t precise, why can i get the exact same result for shot number 2,3,4,5 etc. Only shot 1 is the outlier here.

My next frustration is that the timed shot buttons become somewhat useless. I bought this machine so i could simplify things for my wife when i am not home, she isn’t going to throw a scale on the machine and watch the shot with kids running around.
Single dose grind 18g in, 30 second timer for a double shot espresso and get close to a 1:2 yield. A 30 second timed shot gives completely different yield in the cup when at 10 bar vs 9 bar.

So while i’m making better tasting coffee vs the old Breville set up, I’m annoyingly still dealing with variables i cant control.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - Which bit exactly @DavecUK?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam The bit about Lelit…

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK - See this post Dave:

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/116-lelit-elizabeth-pressure-spikinginconsistent/200

JahLaza

MediumRoastSteam folks, the lelit reps in Germany still denied any knowledge of this when my replacement valve was sent (provided by my retailer not lelit) about 6 weeks ago

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam Ah, I see, I don’t know, I knew what the problem was ages ago, in fact it was me who identified what component was causing it and let everyone know…but what can I do. I do my best now it’s down to Retailers and Lelit.

JahLaza

MediumRoastSteam Let us know how you get on after a couple of weeks if you are still using your Elizabeth.

Am at my parents where the Elizabeth is. So it has been about a month and it’s still working same as the video I posted earlier here, which is perfect. I applied a little molykote when installing the new valve so it seems to be working fine, as you will see from my earlier video here it’s a nice smooth ramp up to the setpoint

drdre89

soundwave1 1st world problems bruh 🤭

europa

drdre89

LOL. That has just put this whole tread in perspective.

MediumRoastSteam

Back on topic (let’s face it, coffee machines and coffee forums in general are a first world problem), I just checked my Elizabeth and I can now say 100% my machine suffers from the same issue. Mine dates 30th June 2020, one of the first V3 machines and from the very first V3 shipment from BB.

The first shot is always around 10 bar. All subsequent shots are 9 bar. Today I backflushed the machine first and then the subsequent shot was at 9 bar. Contrary to some advice given, flushing water through the group does not contribute to anything but to water wastage.

I never really noticed because I always pull one espresso in the morning and one after lunch, so, to me, the machine was always consistent, as I seldom pull 2 shots in a row.

Oh well. Looks like this issue was there from day one.

JahLaza

MediumRoastSteam definitely a big problem for a first worlder!! Shooting to ten bar and then back to nine I don’t think there’s any issue really is there? Would it really make that much difference to the taste in the cup if it overshoots by 1 bar? I don’t believe so. If it’s overshooting by 2 bar or more then maybe, and that would be primarily down to fracturing the puck and consequent gushing or something like that. Lever style profiles on certain pressure profile machine I am now familiar with use an initial ramp up past ten bar and back to 9 as programmed, that coffee almost always tastes great (different machine etc. but you get what I’m saying). Now I could be totally wrong but that’s just my opinion..

drdre89

MediumRoastSteam Oh well. Looks like this issue was there from day one

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