Hi, all. My Lelit Elizabeth v3 is around 3 months old now, and has started to behave a little strangely with regard to pressure. If I put in the blind basket, then engage the pump (no preinfusion, and it's been an hour or so since last use), the pressure spikes up to around 11 bar, then drops quickly to around 10 and holds. If I then do this again very soon after the first time, the pressure will only go to maybe 9.5 bars and hold. Then on the third such run, and all subsequent runs in this sequence, it will just go to 9 and hold there. Something very similar happens with coffee in the portafilter, though the pressures there decline during the shot as expected. I have found on other message boards that a few others have also had this problem, but I haven't really found any solution. One person suggested adjusting the OPV, which I had already done long before this issue arose to set it to 9 from the factory default of 10. I did adjust it again just to see, and it did not seem to help. In fact, when I adjusted it I set it to around 8.5 bars (as the pressure it gives after several runs in a row with the blind basket at least), but the next day it was back to its previous level and behavior, as if the OPV adjustment had undone itself. Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely?

> @"Pygmalion"#p1227 Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely? it's not difficult, but it's very unlikely that the expansion valve (OPV) has gone bad. If it had you would probably be getting other sumptoms. For the OPV to cause the behaviour you're describing, it would have to be stiffer and open later for the first shot, then open a bit further when the pressure drops to 10 bar. Then as you do more shots…it is loosening up. That' not really normal behaviour for that type of valve. If it was sticky, then usually it would jam up on other shots, possibly randomly…it's also very hard for it to stick. As you can see, the only bit that moves is the pad, held by the spring against the port. There is not much to stick or jam. The only par that could is the relatively loose fitting metal bit with a pad. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png[/IMG] From your description, the behaviour seems to follow a consistent pattern, which would indicate another cause. I'm just not sure what at the moment?

@"DavecUK"#p1229 Thanks for the detailed reply DavecUK (BTW, I'm using your advanced parameters for the Elizabeth; thanks!). I wonder what could cause an issue like this, then? Could it be a temperature thing? That is, the first shot might be hotter (if I haven't done a purge, which I often don't), then subsequent ones in somewhat rapid succession are a little cooler, etc. Would this make the pressure behave in this way? My understanding of the OPV is that it sets an upper limit on the pressure, and that it should never rise above this if the OPV is working correctly. Of course, that's only the pressure at the OPV itself, which is not directly what the pressure gauge is reading (pump pressure?). So, if the OPV is not the problem, then it could be the gauge I guess, or it could be that somehow the pressure in the system where the gauge is reading is higher than the OPV in some strange, consistent-ish way. Anyone else having similar behavior?

@"Pygmalion"#p1238 In a rotary pumped machine, odd things can happen because the water goes into a sealed system through a 1 way valve. The expansion valve in that sealed system is set to 12 to 14 bar. In your system it's the expansion valve as you correctly say controlling the pressure, so there is an upper limit….not really sure…am cogitatingt. I even though perhaps air in the capillary tube, but that wouldn't case the problem you're getting.

Morning all, I noticed this morning that I have the exact same thing happen! Preheated for about 40 mins, purged for 3-5 seconds out of the hot water tap, waited a minute or 2, puled a shot with a 10 second preinfusion at 2 bar, after the 10 seconds it shot up to 10-10.5 bar before dropping back to 8.5. Subsequent shots only reached 8.5 bar after PI (I did another 2, one for my wife, the other for 'science', aka my second double before 0700 what could go wrong). The strange thing is, the timings were all exaclty the same, 16g in, 33 out in 33 seconds. I'm wondering if it's more of an issue with the display then with the valve? I've possibly got some friends coming over tomorrow for a pre/post run brew so if I do more then 3 shots I'll pay close attention to the needle and report back...

I've thought about what might be happening by imagineering how I this could be created if one wanted to do so. and looking at the way the Elizabeths were made (factory photos of first production run…I can't see how it can happen, or be made to happen, unless i'm missing something. The repositioning of the expansion valve is still within the sealed brew area, and they changed it for a much better and reachable/adjustable valve. The V2 I had which I modified to a V3 still; has the old valve, as you can see from my review photos, and hydraulically is in essentially the same position (if not physically) https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/ So here is the image, just to orient people 1. Expansion valve controlling brew pressure max 2. Manometer take-off for pressure gauge 3. Autofill solenoid for steam boiler, opens to fill steam boiler 4. Exit port from ring group to vent solenoid 5. Vent solenoid, opens at end of shot. As you can see 1, 2 and 4 , all form part of the sealed brew circuit. The expansion valve is directly connected to the boiler, whatever pressure is experienced by the coffee, the same pressure is seen by 1, 2 and 4. The other numbered components take no part in this. The component under the autofill solenoid (3) is what does the steam preinfusion and incidently takes part in the clever way the machine does hot water. This component can't have any impact as it still only feeds into the same sealed brew circuit controlled by the expansion valve. This means any thermal expansion of water would be controlled ultimately by the expansion valve. My only possible conclusion is perhaps a shock wave caused by any slight airspace and water hammer due to closing of valves? **Perhaps someone could try switching of bloom phase and steam preinfusion, just have a straight shot…then see if it happens** [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/B9miMjc.jpeg]

Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped.

> @"Del_UK"#p1323 Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped. Everything off, probably even steam boiler (even though it shouldn't matter)…but certainly both preinfusion functions (one is referred to as bloom phase). Effectively turning it into a dumb machine. If it still does it, more evidence for a water hammer effect due to air…well that's the theory. ***P.S. If you turn off steam boiler…wait until it's below 100C***

Thanks for all the continued feedback and interesting information, everyone. Also glad (sort of) to hear I'm not alone. DavecUK, this happens even when using no preinfusion of any kind, and also with steam boiler off and cool.

I will keep an eye on mine. I never noticed this. But then again, I only have one coffee in the morning, and one in the afternoon. If there’s any testing I could do, please just let me know. 👍

@"Pygmalion"#p1333 If that is the case, I can only assume it must be a transient water hammer effect type of thing due to air? I would expect it to have no impact on the shot. Any chance of video of it doing it?

Lelit Elizabeth pressure spiking/inconsistent

MediumRoastSteam

JahLaza - yeah, doesn’t bother me. I was just contributing to the thread as initially I thought my machine never had this issue.

Sometimes I do wonder whether all this measuring gauges are more of a hassle than they are worth.

Profitec 300, Rocket Appartamento, Rancilio Silvia Pro (first iteration) don’t have a brew pressure gauge. Maybe they all have the same issue? Who knows. 😊

europa

MediumRoastSteam

You may well be right. But, i at least, cannot ignore it when i know somethings a miss with an expensive gadget. Whether or not it actually makes much difference to the coffee, the fact is this is a fault. And i expect a faultless machine for this price.

drdre89

MediumRoastSteam Oh well. Looks like this issue was there from day one

DavecUK

europa the fact is this is a fault. And i expect a faultless machine for this price.

Which hopefully you now have?

JahLaza

europa I would feel the same way, and I did in fact change the opv on mine. Mine was spiking up to 11.5 bar though from my setpoint of just over 9, so I felt it a bit much. Difference in taste? I don’t think so, but I felt I wanted it to work as I thought it should do! It’s working fine since changing the valve as I stated yesterday

europa

DavecUK

Hopefully! Tho’, i won’t know until i’ve tested it with the new (OLAB) OPV. But i will report back.

Regardless, it has been a right faff to get to this point. BB/LELIT did not make things easy:

BB initially denied any knowledge of this issue, and so i raised a ticket with LELIT. LELIT then asked BB to take back the machine and investigate. BB refused (at that point) to simply send me a new OPV. So i literally had to spend hours packaging the machine.
When i got it back from BB, it sounded like a tractor. So, i ended up taking off the whole casing to fiddle with the pump (which, thankfully, fixed that).
After testing for a few weeks, it was clear the issue was still there; so i contacted both LELIT and BB again.
This time, although still not willing to admit fault, LELIT & BB agreed to send me another OPV to fit myself, but made it clear this was not a new design.
After taking the new (OLAB) one apart, i verified it was a new design and that the one BB fitted just six weeks before was the old design. What a waste of time sending it back!

MediumRoastSteam

I suppose an expansion valve is a relative inexpensive part, so worse case scenario one can simply buy one and fit.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam Next time I am in a factory, I will try and grab one for you!

Inspector

I couldn’t find OLAB one online. Anyway already emailed BB to see if they can send me the same one for self fitment when warranty runs out.

europa

New OLAB OPV fitted and first test runs (with blind basket) complete. All three shots ramped up smoothly to 9 bar exactly. No spikes or deviations whatsoever!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dr3beit1zAdyQKwa7

drdre89

europa ahhh don’t you find a sense of satisfaction and euphoria once it hits that perfect 9 bars and stays there ? Very satisfying.

All hail the OLAB OPV … we salute you

soundwave1

europa is there a part number for that specific olab opv? I’d be keen to hunt one down if my retailer palms me off. Thanks.

dmau9600

europa

Do you have a link to where you purchased it from? Can it be adjusted below 9 bar, to around 8 bar?

MediumRoastSteam

What’s the fitting? Is it ¼ BSP?

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam What’s the fitting? Is it ¼ BSP?

No it will be BSPP i think (I don’t believe any of them use metric threads).

europa

soundwave1

Altho’ the pic is slightly different, i think this is the one:

https://www.olabitaly.com/products/fluid-control/valves/brass-valves/k09611_114.html

You could always email them this pic: https://photos.app.goo.gl/58FuGh1xcP3uu7Xy5, and ask for the part number and whether they have a local-to-you distributor.

ken1

I posted a link to the OPV earlier in the thread https://www.olabitaly.com/news-events/news/series-k09611.html

soundwave1

ken1 thanks mate! I was viewing on my phone and couldn’t find an easy way to search through the post. Appreciate it!

soundwave1

europa Great idea mate, i will fire off an email this evening. Hope yours remains functional! My machine just started shooting to 12 bars today….seems to be getting worse. Would love to fix this as its an otherwise great piece of kit.

europa

soundwave1

Good luck with that. On my side, so far so good!

Inspector

europa

When they send you new style OPV on your purchase order email, was it saying FOC OPV for lelit and SKU: MC931 or something totally different?

europa

Inspector

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