Hi, all. My Lelit Elizabeth v3 is around 3 months old now, and has started to behave a little strangely with regard to pressure. If I put in the blind basket, then engage the pump (no preinfusion, and it's been an hour or so since last use), the pressure spikes up to around 11 bar, then drops quickly to around 10 and holds. If I then do this again very soon after the first time, the pressure will only go to maybe 9.5 bars and hold. Then on the third such run, and all subsequent runs in this sequence, it will just go to 9 and hold there. Something very similar happens with coffee in the portafilter, though the pressures there decline during the shot as expected. I have found on other message boards that a few others have also had this problem, but I haven't really found any solution. One person suggested adjusting the OPV, which I had already done long before this issue arose to set it to 9 from the factory default of 10. I did adjust it again just to see, and it did not seem to help. In fact, when I adjusted it I set it to around 8.5 bars (as the pressure it gives after several runs in a row with the blind basket at least), but the next day it was back to its previous level and behavior, as if the OPV adjustment had undone itself. Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely?

> @"Pygmalion"#p1227 Is this a case of a bad OPV? How difficult is it to change out the OPV entirely? it's not difficult, but it's very unlikely that the expansion valve (OPV) has gone bad. If it had you would probably be getting other sumptoms. For the OPV to cause the behaviour you're describing, it would have to be stiffer and open later for the first shot, then open a bit further when the pressure drops to 10 bar. Then as you do more shots…it is loosening up. That' not really normal behaviour for that type of valve. If it was sticky, then usually it would jam up on other shots, possibly randomly…it's also very hard for it to stick. As you can see, the only bit that moves is the pad, held by the spring against the port. There is not much to stick or jam. The only par that could is the relatively loose fitting metal bit with a pad. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fX9CLwu.png[/IMG] From your description, the behaviour seems to follow a consistent pattern, which would indicate another cause. I'm just not sure what at the moment?

@"DavecUK"#p1229 Thanks for the detailed reply DavecUK (BTW, I'm using your advanced parameters for the Elizabeth; thanks!). I wonder what could cause an issue like this, then? Could it be a temperature thing? That is, the first shot might be hotter (if I haven't done a purge, which I often don't), then subsequent ones in somewhat rapid succession are a little cooler, etc. Would this make the pressure behave in this way? My understanding of the OPV is that it sets an upper limit on the pressure, and that it should never rise above this if the OPV is working correctly. Of course, that's only the pressure at the OPV itself, which is not directly what the pressure gauge is reading (pump pressure?). So, if the OPV is not the problem, then it could be the gauge I guess, or it could be that somehow the pressure in the system where the gauge is reading is higher than the OPV in some strange, consistent-ish way. Anyone else having similar behavior?

@"Pygmalion"#p1238 In a rotary pumped machine, odd things can happen because the water goes into a sealed system through a 1 way valve. The expansion valve in that sealed system is set to 12 to 14 bar. In your system it's the expansion valve as you correctly say controlling the pressure, so there is an upper limit….not really sure…am cogitatingt. I even though perhaps air in the capillary tube, but that wouldn't case the problem you're getting.

Morning all, I noticed this morning that I have the exact same thing happen! Preheated for about 40 mins, purged for 3-5 seconds out of the hot water tap, waited a minute or 2, puled a shot with a 10 second preinfusion at 2 bar, after the 10 seconds it shot up to 10-10.5 bar before dropping back to 8.5. Subsequent shots only reached 8.5 bar after PI (I did another 2, one for my wife, the other for 'science', aka my second double before 0700 what could go wrong). The strange thing is, the timings were all exaclty the same, 16g in, 33 out in 33 seconds. I'm wondering if it's more of an issue with the display then with the valve? I've possibly got some friends coming over tomorrow for a pre/post run brew so if I do more then 3 shots I'll pay close attention to the needle and report back...

I've thought about what might be happening by imagineering how I this could be created if one wanted to do so. and looking at the way the Elizabeths were made (factory photos of first production run…I can't see how it can happen, or be made to happen, unless i'm missing something. The repositioning of the expansion valve is still within the sealed brew area, and they changed it for a much better and reachable/adjustable valve. The V2 I had which I modified to a V3 still; has the old valve, as you can see from my review photos, and hydraulically is in essentially the same position (if not physically) https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/ So here is the image, just to orient people 1. Expansion valve controlling brew pressure max 2. Manometer take-off for pressure gauge 3. Autofill solenoid for steam boiler, opens to fill steam boiler 4. Exit port from ring group to vent solenoid 5. Vent solenoid, opens at end of shot. As you can see 1, 2 and 4 , all form part of the sealed brew circuit. The expansion valve is directly connected to the boiler, whatever pressure is experienced by the coffee, the same pressure is seen by 1, 2 and 4. The other numbered components take no part in this. The component under the autofill solenoid (3) is what does the steam preinfusion and incidently takes part in the clever way the machine does hot water. This component can't have any impact as it still only feeds into the same sealed brew circuit controlled by the expansion valve. This means any thermal expansion of water would be controlled ultimately by the expansion valve. My only possible conclusion is perhaps a shock wave caused by any slight airspace and water hammer due to closing of valves? **Perhaps someone could try switching of bloom phase and steam preinfusion, just have a straight shot…then see if it happens** [upl-image-preview url=//i.imgur.com/B9miMjc.jpeg]

Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped.

> @"Del_UK"#p1323 Do you mean turn off the steam boiler or just not have any preinfusion? If so I got it just now with just a stright shot, no 10 second bloom, just 8.5 bars. It still spiked up to about 10 bars and the second shot rose to 8.5 and stopped. Everything off, probably even steam boiler (even though it shouldn't matter)…but certainly both preinfusion functions (one is referred to as bloom phase). Effectively turning it into a dumb machine. If it still does it, more evidence for a water hammer effect due to air…well that's the theory. ***P.S. If you turn off steam boiler…wait until it's below 100C***

Thanks for all the continued feedback and interesting information, everyone. Also glad (sort of) to hear I'm not alone. DavecUK, this happens even when using no preinfusion of any kind, and also with steam boiler off and cool.

I will keep an eye on mine. I never noticed this. But then again, I only have one coffee in the morning, and one in the afternoon. If there’s any testing I could do, please just let me know. 👍

@"Pygmalion"#p1333 If that is the case, I can only assume it must be a transient water hammer effect type of thing due to air? I would expect it to have no impact on the shot. Any chance of video of it doing it?

Lelit Elizabeth pressure spiking/inconsistent

vinterben

Hey everybody in here!

Two+ years later, I am checking in to see whether this is still an issue?

I bought my Elizabeth a couple of weeks ago. Production date is September 2023. When I am pulling shots, it goes to factory default 10, maybe 10.5 bars and stays there. Also on shot two and three. So I don’t suppose this is an issue for me? Re the OPV issue.

@DavecUK, do you know if this was fixed in production/assembly by Lelit, since it’s now a very old case

Second, can I ask you all some basic questions about the machine?

Would you recommend me to dial the OPV to 9-9.5 bars? (Or perhaps slightly lower at 8-8.5, even?) Do I break warranty by doing so? And would you do it with the blind filter, pre-infusion off and just dialling in until set bars are reached?
What are your preferred settings when it comes to preinfusion and blooming times? Depends on beans etc., of course, but what are some good standard settings? I am using button 1 and button 2 for different “profiles”, so let me hear.
I have read the very thorough manual/guide and advanced settings by @DavecUK (and than you so very much! You’re the man who convinced me to pull the plug on the machine through your review! :)) But I have a question, perhaps primarily for Dave, but others please chip in: a few settings diverge quite much from the factory settings. Why is that? For instance KPc, where Dave says 0.2 but factory is 2.0. These recommendations were made for your V2/modded V3, correct, Dave? Any changes to these settings with a 2023 PL92T? And could you elaborate on each of them as to why the changes and what they do?
Perhaps related to said changes in 3), but I find my machine to make “burps” or “farts”. Can’t explain it any better. Letting out a little bit of air, or getting a little bit too hot-something. Somehow I - albeit anecdotally - think it increases with the changes as per Dave’s guide vs. factory defaults. Is this normal behavior for a boiler? (I owned a BBE before, so not familiar with a DB before now.)
Dave, you write that the sweet spot for the machine/basket is 16 grams dose. Why/how makes you say that? The basket is a 14-18 grams, and then I bought a Lelit Bottomless portafilter which included an 18-21 basket.

Thank you all very much, and let me know if I am to post these questions in another thread instead.

Best

Jacob, Copenhagen

DavecUK

vinterben I bought my Elizabeth a couple of weeks ago. Production date is September 2023. When I am pulling shots, it goes to factory default 10, maybe 10.5 bars and stays there. Also on shot two and three. So I don’t suppose this is an issue for me? Re the OPV issue.

I’m not sure, it’s not very clear what’s happening. If it’s always happening and happening on shots 2 and 3, it doesn’t sound like you have the jamming expansion valve issue. Are you testing this against a blind filter, or coffee?

You could dial down the expansion valve to a lower setting, but personally, I wouldn’t worry about it.

MediumRoastSteam

vinterben on op of what Dave just said above… the recommended settings are in the Elizabeth review Dave produced a while back.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/05/08/lelit-elizabeth/

@DavecUK - is there a link where all your reviews are available from? From this forum? I couldn’t find one easily if there was one.

vinterben

DavecUK Thank you, Dave. To avoid any doubt on my end, you reckon I shouldn’t bother dialing it down to ~9 bars? You don’t see much quality difference in the espresso on 9 vs. 10 bars? Works for me - still early days in my more advanced coffee days, so less to tinker with for now, the better.

To the OPV “issue”, I just tried three consequtive shots with the blind filter:

I let it heat to 94 degress, “pulled a shot” with pre-infusion and normal pressure
Pressure went to the high end of 10 bar (just before the line of 11 bars). So slightly higher than with coffee but perhaps not untypical as no water gets through now
Repeated the same thing two more times as soon as brew temp had reached 94 degrees again.
Got the exact same almost 11 bars the last two shots, too.

Thoughts on this?

To my last three bullets in my initial message, what do you think here, if I may?

Thank you very much - greatly appreciate it!

vinterben

MediumRoastSteam Appreciate it, thank you :) I have bookmarked all of Dave’s content regarding the Elizabeth 🙏🏻

Do you own a Elizabeth yourself? What are your thoughts, and have you “just” applied the advanced settings as put forward by Dave?

Thank you.

MediumRoastSteam

vinterben - hello! My Elizabeth is 4 years old. 😊 - as soon as it came out of the box, I applied Dave’s settings.

vinterben

@DavecUK , here are two scrappy videos hopefully recording the “burping”. All normal stuff? I don’t think it did it the first days in use, to be fair…

Tried adding but only allows images. Link here if doable: https://share.icloud.com/photos/051F5_skWSKIu_FMOnhUb44aQ

DavecUK

vinterben Tried adding but only allows images. Link here if doable:

i can’t really tell what it is, theres no real context…just a steel panel and some sounds for 5 seconds or so.

By context I mean things like:

temperature
was the boiler warming up
does it do it all the time
etc.

As for the pressure, you can lower it if you really want to.

Videos are best posted by uploading to YouTube as unlisted, then pasting the link here…the forum automagically sorts it out. Even better YT don’t charge per second of video.

vinterben

DavecUK Of course not, thank you :)

Context is that is does it when it’s turned on but not in stand-by. i.e. all the time.

Temp set at 94 and 135, respectively. I have tried turning off the steam boiler but doesn’t seem to resolve it. As mentioned, I don’t think it did it the first couple of days/week

Tried adding two videos here. Perhaps not surprisingly, it sounds like it’s coming from underneath the machine, perhaps closer to the left than to the right. I try pointing in the first video.

In the second video, you see/hear a 10 sec break to begin with, and then it starts again. This goes on, until it eventually is turned off or goes into stand-by.

If unclear, they are loud sounds, almost like a boiler raging (no pun intended) mixed with popping corn or something… Like something is either turning on or letting out pressure, too, perhaps. Any ideas?

https://youtube.com/shorts/izN9TC6vQMQ?feature=share

https://youtube.com/shorts/zXIiEakEQr8?feature=share

Hope this helps - thank you!

MediumRoastSteam

vinterben - if the machine is new - I’d contact the retailer and go from there.

Is there any steam coming out of the outlets at the bottom of the machine, into the drip tray?

DavecUK

vinterben Temp set at 94 and 135, respectively. I have tried turning off the steam boiler but doesn’t seem to resolve it. As mentioned, I don’t think it did it the first couple of days/week

Tried adding two videos here. Perhaps not surprisingly, it sounds like it’s coming from underneath the machine, perhaps closer to the left than to the right. I try pointing in the first video.

so let me be totally clear

With the steam boiler off and cold, it still makes those sounds?? If it does it means your expansion valve is faulty
The sound is not coming from underneath, it’s coming from a vent just above the drip tray, where expansion valve and safety valve tubes meet.

So there could be one, or two problems, a leaky expansion valve and possibly a leaky safet valve as well, although I would say the chances of both being faulty are low.

vinterben

MediumRoastSteam thank you. It is. Only a couple of week old.

Not entirely sure but I don’t think so. Not outside the occasional “OPV excess” and steam wand drips.

Just to confirm: it’s not supposed to sound like that?

MediumRoastSteam

vinterben - It’s best not to use the term OPV - which is often used to reference the expansion valve - NOT the vacuum breaker.

Mine is silent. It doesn’t make any hissing noises, nor banging noises. Call the retailer and let them deal with it. I would.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK a vent just above the drip tray, where expansion valve and safety valve tubes meet.

Just a small correction: on the Elizabeth, the safety valve (steam boiler) and the expansion valve (brew circuit) are joined via a 4way connector ending in the tank.

The anti-vacuum valve (steam boiler) and the group vent solenoid valve (brew circuit) end up in the drip tray, via two completely separate outlets.

vinterben

DavecUK Dave, I unwillingly didn’t tell you the truth. I just disabled the steam boiler after getting hot. Now, having had the machine off for a couple of hours and then turning it on with the steam boiler off, it doesn’t make the sounds anymore.

How does that change things?

DavecUK

vinterben How does that change things?

It means it’s the safety valve if your steam boiler has one silicone tube from the boiler to the vent above the drip tray. If the vacuum breaker is also routed there (a second tube), it could be that or the safety valve..

It’s definitely not the expansion valve.

If you have a photo of the top of your steam boiler, I can tell you for sure, if you can’t work it out.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK means it’s the safety valve if your steam boiler has one silicone tube from the boiler to the vent above the drip tray

That’s not the case on the Lizzy. See my post above.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK If the vacuum breaker is also routed there

Yes it is. 😉 - as per my earlier post.

vinterben

Thank you so very much, @MediumRoastSteam and @DavecUK - I really, really appreciate your help on this matter 🙏🏻

I’d love to give you an answer/picture, Dave, but I’ve just emailed the retailer instead with the description, videos and your both’s explanations. I’d rather not open it and be held accountable for anything :D

I’ll let you know how it goes - but thank you so much!

Have a lovely day :)

Best
Jacob

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