WT* is With This Puck ?*? … What’s Your Preferred Distribution Technique

JHCCoffee

Hi All

Noticed this puck on a couple of shots (not regularly, but it has occurred a couple of times in my morning espresso over the past week).

What’s going on? *#!!

To be fair, I do briefly hit the flush bottons (top 2 bottons at the same time) to release the puck after the shot, as I find that my puck sticks to the IMS shower screen if I don’t. I have recently been using a 15g IMF Precision basket, which I dose to 13.5 grams, so I think that there is enough headroom; I haven’t yet but will try the nickel test.

Fyi I tamp with full pressure (using an EasyTamp), their thicker tamp base and the spring that allows 25 or so pounds pressure (can’t recall exactly). But the EasyTamp ensures a level tamp.

Which leads me to a related topic. I distribute using using a WDT tool with 10 needles of 0.35 mm thickness. I first wet my beans with a very light, fine spray of water (RDT), then grind, then WDT and tamp. My WDT is careful (not overly aggressive) and I groom the surface with that tool, to improve levelness before tamping. And to further ensure dose evenness, when I grind into my basket, I move the basket around to ensure even distribution; I do not mound the grounds. I have a low height dosing funnel that is abit wider than the basket that keeps the grounds from spilling everywhere while I move the basket around under the grinder. I then remove that funnel and replace it with a magnet dosing collar, whose inner sides exactly match the inner sides of the basket. This collar does not at all intrude into the basket. It just extends the height of the basket, which allows for less messy WDT.

I do not rotate the tamper before tamping. I do not nutate the tamper. I do not use a distribution wedge. I just RDT, grind, WDT, groom and tamp. Does this sound right? What do you do?

This being said, I did see a barista world championships competitor demonstrating a new WDT device that rotates the WDT needles. He then used a rotating distribution wedge / leveler to smooth and level the top level of grind (I don’t know how deep the leveling tool is set).

Question: Is my WDT approach sufficient or should I level the puck in some way? If I should level, then how?

Some folks also tap the portafilter down onto the bench once. I don’t, as I think (maybe wrongly) that this introduces a very inexact grounds compression variable. Should I do this? Do you? Why or why not?

What is your latest/best distribution approach?

Btw, I did complete a search for threads on this topic, and didn’t see one that addresses my above questions. So my apologies if I am raising some espresso 101 questions. But those couple of weird shots shown in the photos … and … watching the world championships competitor in recent action (I will try to find a link to that video) intrigued me and led me to make this basic post.

tompoland

JHCCoffee it would be easier to diagnose if you can video your WDT and the pour using a naked/bottomless basket. I appreciate that can be challenging but otherwise there is a lot of guesswork going on.

From what you have very written, your method sounds fine. But the video would allow us to see your technique.

Also, what is the roast date on the bag of beans and what was the date frozen?

JHCCoffee

Further to this post:

I found this blog post on basket dosing and headspace, by BaristaHustle, to be interesting. BH Blog on Headspace
I tested 2 shots this morning, both 15 in, 29 out, coarser grind (than prior shots), 8 seconds bloom pre-infusion, which ran 45 seconds. Temp 95C. Same decaf espresso roast coffee beans as before. The flow was visibly uneven (streamed towards the side of the basket) and there were visible holes on the top of the spent pucks. Same issue with both shots; hmmm.

The taste change was interesting. As predicted in the BH blog (which confirmed what I tasted), the shots had greater body but less extraction. I prefer the mouthfeel from these shots but miss the complexity of my prior shots. This could be one off, especially due to the uneven flow, but if the uneven flow was not due to insufficient distribution but rather was due to insufficient headspace, then dosing at 14g may work better (still within 1g of the basket’s ideal dose).

Sorry to bore you with my ongoing dialing in learning process.

Puck no longer sticks, but I am using MediumRoastSteams portafilter removal tip.

wilburpan

This may not be a popular idea, but I use a toothpick as a low rent distribution tool. It seems to work well in my hands. You can see how I do this in this video I made about how I set up and use a 9Barista. The toothpick action is at the 2:45 mark.

JHCCoffee

wilburpan

Hi Wilburpan

wilburpan This may not be a popular idea, but I use a toothpick as a low rent distribution tool.

If you are looking for an inexpensive alternative, you can buy the 0.35 mm needles on Amazon, as either acupuncture needles or 3D Printer cleaning needles. There has been a fair bit of testing on needle size, and the consensus seems to be at 0.35mm to 0.40mm. Conversely I and others found 0.25mm to be too thin and bendy, with potential to create clumps if they bend too closely together. I found anything thicker than 0.40 mm to be too stiff and move the grounds around too much. I noticed a significant improvement in distribution and a reduction in channeling and just more consistency when I moved from very thick sewing type needles to 0.35mm needles. I then bought an inexpensive 3D printed tool that holds the needles. And for my cottage setup, I just inserted the needles in a wine cork. Some folks use a champagne cork; I was tempted to break open a bottle of good champagne to do that, but it would have made things a tad expensive and led to needle cut fingers. But it sure would be a great excuse to crack open a bottle. 🍾🥂

Amberale

G’Day JHC.
To my eye your basket looks under dosed, not necessarily a bad thing.
How does it taste?

About the RDT, you should spray your beans before putting them in the grinder.
This helps to prevent static and messy grinds.
I haven’t heard of anyone spraying their ground coffee before WDT and tamping.

I do tap the basket on the bench after WDT and before tamping as my doses sit above the edge of my basket otherwise and make for a messy tamp and inaccurate dose.
So, I WDT, tap, remove funnel, tamp.

I don’t believe that the wedges do anything other than level the top.
Competition entrants use them because they are scored on how level their puck is at various stages.

Are those pics after the ?“Flush”?
What machine are you using?

JHCCoffee

Amberale To my eye your basket looks under dosed, not necessarily a bad thing.
How does it taste?

If my memory serves me correctly, it was a shot that tasted a tad burnt and ashy, as ran it a tad long, to see what flavor notes would be extracted. Its remotely possible that the puck cracked towards the end of the shot, as its a relatively thin puck (13.5 g in a 15g IMS 58.4 mm basket.

JHCCoffee

Amberale About the RDT, you should spray your beans before putting them in the grinder.
This helps to prevent static and messy grinds.
I haven’t heard of anyone spraying their ground coffee before WDT and tamping.

I freeze my beans in individual serving packets. I then quickly pour the beans in a dosing cup (after taring the cup on the scale) and remove any excess beans. I spray water mist into that cup, stir and then pour into my Eureka Mignon Specialita grinder. I grind from frozen, which a number of pundits state produces finer grinds and better particle size consistency. But that is a whole other topic that been well debated.

wilburpan

JHCCoffee If you are looking for an inexpensive alternative, you can buy the 0.35 mm needles on Amazon

I don’t doubt that those needles are inexpensive, but pricewise, it’s going to be hard to beat the toothpick that I use, which I picked up from one of our local restaurants. 😉

Amberale

JHCCoffee

Fairy Nuff.
Your first post seemed to imply that you spray after grinding and before WDT.

Cuprajake

Prob to fine a grind

JHCCoffee

Cuprajake

Thanks Cuprajake. Aside from this particular puck, any thoughts on my distribution technique vs yours? What do you do?

MediumRoastSteam

By looking at the picture:

you ground too fine;
You dosed too low;
Your puck is so thin it fractured during brew.

Suggestion: Dose 16g next and go from there, then try 15g.

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam

Thanks MediumRoastSteam.

This was with an IMS 15g basket, which I am testing out, to realize the benefits of thinner puck. So I suppose that I cannot or shouldn’t dose above 15g in this basket or I will run into headspace issues. We will see if this is a repeat or frequent occurrence.

Fyi, as I had been enabling the after shot release of the puck by using my Lelit’s flush buttons for a couple of seconds (my puck sticks to my IMS screen if I do not), might this flush be the cause of the puck fracture?

In any event, back to the second part of my post. What do you think of my distribution technique? What do you do and why? Do you tap against the counter? Do you level the grounds after WDT, if you WDT? If so, how do you level?

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee This was with an IMS 15g basket,

Right. I googled that up. Seems like it’s a very thin basket, i.e.: 22mm. The 24.5mm hods approx. 18g, and the 26.5mm holds 20g. So it’s fair to say that approx. 2mm difference mean roughly 2g in coffee. So yeah, try 16g or 15g. I think 13.5g is too little.

JHCCoffee Fyi, as I had been enabling the after shot release of the puck by using my Lelit’s flush buttons for a couple of seconds (my puck sticks to my IMS screen if I do not), might this flush be the cause of the puck fracture?

Maybe. But that’s irrelevant if that’s afterwards right? 😃 - If your IMS screen is giving you stuck pucks… Why use it? Was the original screen giving you stuck pucks too?

With the original screen, don’t do it too tight. Tighten the screen barely until the screen touches the plate and you can no longer rotate the screen with your fingers. As for the IMS screen, no idea. I think it’s useless for the Elizabeth, but that’s up to you to determine.🤪

JHCCoffee back to the second part of my post. What do you think of my distribution technique?

My most recent experimentation after being bored of the Niche disk and dosing into the portafilter for a while…

Dose 18g into the Niche;
Cover it with a lid that fits to reduce popcorning; (small Nutella pot lid, anything really);
Grind into Niche’s cup;
Stir the grinds into the cup with a chopstick;
Flip it over the ground coffee into the portafilter basket;
Remove the cup;
Level it with a one of those wet tool, but I think a toothpick will do the trick too - I used one for ages;
Optionally, use a levelling tool - I use it occasionally, and when I do it I swear it works better!
Tamp;
Brew.

So no, I do not tap the basket/PF to settle.

IMMV.

With regards to stucky pucks… The Elizabeth is a champion for that. But it depends on many factors. I wrote extensively about this, and there isn’t a single thing that one can do to mitigate that - well, unless you use a puck screen. 😃. For me, it sometimes happens, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s more likely to happen for certain coffees too.

If you want to release the stuck puck from the group cleanly, there are ways:

Undo the PF pushing the handle down slightly. When I mean slightly, I mean just gravity really or a tiny amount of gentle downwards pressure. subconsciously, we try to keep the PF level. So keep “unscrewing” the PF like so until it comes out. The puck is likely to come out with it.
Blip the brew button for a very short time, like, half a second. put a little container underneath it and catch the puck.

Welcome to the madness. 🤣

Doram

JHCCoffee might this flush be the cause of the puck fracture?

You would know that better than anyone else, wouldn’t you? As you do all this prep, I am assuming you are using a bottomless portafilter? The puck in your pictures looks badly damaged. If that would happen during the shot I would think you would have seen significant channeling on a bottomless PF. Did you? If not - I would conclude that this has happened when you flushed the puck after the shot, in which case you have no issue.

As to the description of your prep - it is similar to mine with some small differences: I don’t spary the beans with water and I dose 15g into a 15g IMS basket. I do knock the PF once on the counter, but this seems insignificant and I doubt it is causing any issues either way.

My only comment to your puck prep is the dose. It is very coffee dependant, but with the coffees I use I wouldn’t go below 14g in my 15g IMS basket, and with some coffees I wouldn’t go below 15g. In fact, even when I tried dosing 17g I found the 15g basket is a better fit than my 18g IMS. (but again, if your puck broke after the shot when you flushed it, the whole discussion is redundant).

JHCCoffee

Doram

MediumRoastSteam

Thanks Doram and MediiumRoastSteam (MRS)

I am going to try MRS’s portafilter handle rotation/pressure trick to try and stop the puck from sticking. If I don’t see a puck fracture, then that issue is solved. Stay tuned.

As for IMS 15 Precision Screen basket, if I updose, I presume that if I keep the same brew ratio with this particular bean, the following will happen:

1. The shot will run longer, due to the increased puck thickness.

2. If I choose to maintain the same shot time (especially if it runs really long, without flow profiling, which the Lelit Elizabeth cannot do), then I will have to grind coarser.

3. The speed and vertical evenness of water penetration into the puck might be somewhat reduced (an espresso pundit stated on their site that thinner but still high flow baskets improve the evenness of vertical water penetration into the puck, which they said was a good thing). Thoughts on this?

4. The amount of headspace between the top of the puck and the screen will be reduced. Time for a nickel test!

All of the above may be ok. Still, given the above 4 effects of increasing the dose, while maintaining the same brew ratio and possibly time), you may have other benefits/rationale in mind for increasing the dose for this basket. Can you elaborate on these. Is it simply that the basket is designed for a larger dose and would not tolerate more than 1g variance above or below its rated capacity?

JHCCoffee

MediumRoastSteam Undo the PF pushing the handle down slightly. When I mean slightly, I mean just gravity really or a tiny amount of gentle downwards pressure. subconsciously, we try to keep the PF level. So keep “unscrewing” the PF like so until it comes out. The puck is likely to come out with it.

Thanks MediumRoastSteam ! This works and the puck does not fracture, down to 14.0g doses in the 15g basket. Have not again tried 13.5g, to see if that puck is just too thin and fractures (or not).

Interesting taste dynamics. Started at 15.0g and working down, keeping the same 2.0 brew ratio. The 15.0g shot had better mouthfeel (body) but less complexity (extraction). As the dose goes down (with same brew ratio), mouthfeel (body) declines but complexity (extraction) increases. My best shot with this bean was still the 13.5g (2.0 ratio) I started with, coarsened to run slightly faster (35 seconds).

While taste (and extraction) is starting to be decent (maybe a 7 of 10 on my taste scale), its still not where I want it to be. Next steps are: 1) remove the IMS screen and try the Lelit screen again, through the above shot series, starting at 15.5g and working down to 13.5g, in 0.5g increments. 2) increasing the OPV pressure from 9 bar now to 10 bar, or possibly 11 bar (if that is safe??), and re-running the series.

This will also increase the water flow at the grouphead, which was slightly low/slow at 180 ml in 30 seconds (vs my target of 240 ml in 30 seconds, ie the midpoint of Matt Pergers suggested 200 to 280 ml in 30 seconds range). Waterflow will likely go down when I swap out the IMS screen for the Lelit screen (my shots certainly ran slower with the Lelit screen), but it will be interesting to see the impacts.

tompoland

wilburpan Let me know if you ever decide to sell Wil. Would you ship to Australia and is it still under warranty?

Cuprajake

toothpick is prob too thick really,

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee Can you elaborate on these.

not really. Try 15g if you want. I did suggest you go 16g and then work your way down to see what works best for you. You have less of a change to get a stuck puck with a higher dose, that’s all.

Don’t overthink it. If you have basket that says 15g, dose 15g and tweak the grinder to give you approx. 30g of coffee in approx. 30 seconds. Then play with the dose and see what suits you best.

Rob1

Can’t tell anything from the puck. Can happen at the end of the shot as all of the pressure is released or sucked out. I don’t know what this thing is in the elizabeth that lets the puck release….

If it happens through the shot it will be obvious. Maybe grinding too fine and causing the puck to stick but it’s not too fine if the taste is ok.