Hi All, I've had my Lelit Bianca/Niche Zero combo for about 9 months now and still struggling a bit with it and looking for a bit of advice. What I'd like a suggestion on is if from anyone who has the Lelit/Niche set up and has a go-to coffee where they have a pretty set recipe that works that I can try to replicate (ideally this would be without using the paddle initially to keep things simple). I know everyone will have a different palate but one of the things I'm really struggling with is trying to learn when I need to go coarser/fine, higher/lower dose, lower/higher ratio, etc. based on taste. This is leading to me using up a lot of coffee on what I feel are average/poor taste shots and not knowing how to fix them. I think I've been making this harder by wanting to try lots of different coffees rather than sticking to one to learn…so I guess I'm looking for one that I can try to learn on whilst minimising the risk that I'll be trying to do that with a coffee that's very difficult to work with! Appreciate the help/suggestions with this. I've included more details below for why/how I've arrived at this point in thinking the above would be a good way forward. Thanks Neil --- I've had the machine 9 months and I'd say I have made some progress over time. I was pretty new to brewing my own espresso before I got the Lelit, I had a Sage Barista express for about a year before selling it as I wasn't getting anywhere with that! I think it has partly taken me so long as I had my wedding and a new job this year so didn't get many periods where I could focus on improving my coffee brewing technique/knowledge. At first, I had a lot of issues with what I think was channeling where I'd get some decent shots and some that were not good at all. After a lot of practice and buying a WDT tool I think I've managed to mostly get rid of this issue now - at least from a visual perspective my pours through a bottomless look much better than before. I think this issue made it really hard for me to dial in at the start because I'd get confused as to whether to go coarser/finer as I'd end up with astringent shots (due to channeling) and mistake it for bitterness. I did make a post a while ago when I first got the machine about dialing-in where I got some advice that I should do this by taste rather than visuals and I have been really trying to do that now that the channeling issues seem to have been sorted out (or made better at least). Some things that I have noticed/info: * I am generally sticking to 18g dose regardless of the coffee I use in the Lelit double basket (I think 16g-18g). This is because I'm already struggling with the other variables of grind size and ratio. * I haven't tried the paddle yet because that is another variable which I feel like is only going to confuse things until I can get the basics right (good future proofing hopefully for when I get there…). The machine is set at 9bar at the pump, the pressure gauge on the group head tends to get up to about 9.5bar and drops off to say 8.5 bar through the shot. * I find if I target a ratio of 2:1 at a shot time of 20s-30s then the result is pretty much always bad (taste is pretty astringent). This caused me a lot of frustration at first as I thought this meant it was too bitter so I'd go coarser which made things worse. The pour also tends to look quite uneven/fast(?). I know this is rule of thumb can be unhelpful at times…but I'm not sure if there's a better starting point when dialing-in? * When I went finer and ended up with shot times closer to 40s-45s then the pour looked a lot better and the taste was certainly better in that the astringency was gone. However, I found it often tasted a bit bland at this point (perhaps over-extraction?) as there was not much acidity but also no sweetness. I'd then usually try and reduce the ratio which sometimes gave some success. I found one coffee where I got this to work pretty well but unfortunately it was a short-run and very expensive (I bought it from a local coffee shop and they imported from Norway I think). * It also feels like this has led me down a dead end at some points and then not sure how to reset. As some of the coffees I used were lighter roasts (which generally I think need longer rather than shorter shots). So all in all feel like I'm overcomplicating things! * I've also wondered if I should turn down the pressure on my machine further to make things easier as I know that can help. * Any guidance on obvious mistakes above would be appreciated! I guess where I hope to get to is just being able to consistently get a good espresso out of my set up a couple of times a day. And to be able to try new coffees every now and then without ending up getting through a whole bag without getting anything particularly good. It feels like others have found this very do-able…so I'm pretty sure its my own shortcomings and just trying to get up the learning curve. I fully appreciate this will need work/practice (and potentially money 🙃 ), just want to make sure I'm directing it to the right place. So this is why I thought if I could replicate with a coffee that others are able to get good extractions out of then I can at least start learning what the pour should look like, how to taste/distinguish different flavours and know a bit more which was to course correct when things go wrong. I have tried using the espresso compass and other useful tools which I think have helped a bit, but I still feel like I'm ending up at dead ends quite a lot of the time (and/or I'm using a whole bag of coffee and ended up disappointed with the outcome). Sorry for the very long post…just trying to give as much info as possible!

Thanks everyone for the prompt and very helpful replies. I've ordered 1kg of the Northstar Brazilian given that was three positive votes so will give that a go! I will post a video of the extraction with the new coffee rather than what I have left of the old one as I've only got enough for about 2 more shots so doesn't seem a lot of point asking for feedback when I won't have an opportunity to fix! To answer a few of the questions raised: * Temperature is set to 92C for now. I have moved this slightly up/down for lighter/darker roasts I've used. * Coffee preferences I'm pretty open to trying anything to be honest. I am good with the acidity that lighter roasts can provide but I also enjoy the chocolatey flavours you can get from darker roasts. * @"1984FXSE" - when you are using 19g is this with the largest basket that comes with the Lelit? The traditional "double" is noted as 16g-18g whereas I think the larger is 20-22g, but I've just stuck to the 16g-18g to date (usually going for 18g). * I am cleaning the shower screen about once a week. I caught this on another thread after I hadn't done it for about 3 months and learnt very quickly this wasn't frequently enough. Portafilter I give a rinse every time I've used it (tends to only be 1-2 shots) usually with a bit of soap. * For storing I have a vacuum canister so that should stop staling. Not resting enough perhaps more likely to be the problem - especially when I have used lighter roasts as I tend to be quite bad at ordering ahead of time so I run out of coffee just as the new batch arrives which doesn't leave much time for resting. * @"LMSC"#16 - Are you saying you tend to use 16-17g in the Lelit standard double basket? So perhaps I'm a bit over when I'm using 18g and should drop down 1-2g? * @"Cuprajake"#144 - good advice that maybe I was still underextracting…with the coffee I have currently (almost run out) I just ignored time and ground a bit finer and let it extract all the way to 2:1 even though it took about 50 seconds. It was much better than I've what I've managed so far and finally getting some sweetness coming through (and no bitterness at all despite the very long extraction time). I think this is a good example of where I've previously been going wrong by trying to aim for 20-30s extraction time when it seems like you can often need to move quite far away from that! Perhaps I just need to be a bit braver and trust my taste/eyes more than general guidelines. Thanks again everyone. Will report back this weekend when the new beans have turned up. I think its a medium-darker roast so shouldn't need too much resting time?

Lelit Bianca/Niche Zero

NW9

Hi All,

I’ve had my Lelit Bianca/Niche Zero combo for about 9 months now and still struggling a bit with it and looking for a bit of advice.

What I’d like a suggestion on is if from anyone who has the Lelit/Niche set up and has a go-to coffee where they have a pretty set recipe that works that I can try to replicate (ideally this would be without using the paddle initially to keep things simple). I know everyone will have a different palate but one of the things I’m really struggling with is trying to learn when I need to go coarser/fine, higher/lower dose, lower/higher ratio, etc. based on taste. This is leading to me using up a lot of coffee on what I feel are average/poor taste shots and not knowing how to fix them. I think I’ve been making this harder by wanting to try lots of different coffees rather than sticking to one to learn…so I guess I’m looking for one that I can try to learn on whilst minimising the risk that I’ll be trying to do that with a coffee that’s very difficult to work with!

Appreciate the help/suggestions with this. I’ve included more details below for why/how I’ve arrived at this point in thinking the above would be a good way forward.

Thanks

Neil

—

I’ve had the machine 9 months and I’d say I have made some progress over time. I was pretty new to brewing my own espresso before I got the Lelit, I had a Sage Barista express for about a year before selling it as I wasn’t getting anywhere with that! I think it has partly taken me so long as I had my wedding and a new job this year so didn’t get many periods where I could focus on improving my coffee brewing technique/knowledge.

At first, I had a lot of issues with what I think was channeling where I’d get some decent shots and some that were not good at all. After a lot of practice and buying a WDT tool I think I’ve managed to mostly get rid of this issue now - at least from a visual perspective my pours through a bottomless look much better than before. I think this issue made it really hard for me to dial in at the start because I’d get confused as to whether to go coarser/finer as I’d end up with astringent shots (due to channeling) and mistake it for bitterness.

I did make a post a while ago when I first got the machine about dialing-in where I got some advice that I should do this by taste rather than visuals and I have been really trying to do that now that the channeling issues seem to have been sorted out (or made better at least). Some things that I have noticed/info:

I am generally sticking to 18g dose regardless of the coffee I use in the Lelit double basket (I think 16g-18g). This is because I’m already struggling with the other variables of grind size and ratio.
I haven’t tried the paddle yet because that is another variable which I feel like is only going to confuse things until I can get the basics right (good future proofing hopefully for when I get there…). The machine is set at 9bar at the pump, the pressure gauge on the group head tends to get up to about 9.5bar and drops off to say 8.5 bar through the shot.
I find if I target a ratio of 2:1 at a shot time of 20s-30s then the result is pretty much always bad (taste is pretty astringent). This caused me a lot of frustration at first as I thought this meant it was too bitter so I’d go coarser which made things worse. The pour also tends to look quite uneven/fast(?). I know this is rule of thumb can be unhelpful at times…but I’m not sure if there’s a better starting point when dialing-in?
When I went finer and ended up with shot times closer to 40s-45s then the pour looked a lot better and the taste was certainly better in that the astringency was gone. However, I found it often tasted a bit bland at this point (perhaps over-extraction?) as there was not much acidity but also no sweetness. I’d then usually try and reduce the ratio which sometimes gave some success. I found one coffee where I got this to work pretty well but unfortunately it was a short-run and very expensive (I bought it from a local coffee shop and they imported from Norway I think).
It also feels like this has led me down a dead end at some points and then not sure how to reset. As some of the coffees I used were lighter roasts (which generally I think need longer rather than shorter shots). So all in all feel like I’m overcomplicating things!
I’ve also wondered if I should turn down the pressure on my machine further to make things easier as I know that can help.
Any guidance on obvious mistakes above would be appreciated!

I guess where I hope to get to is just being able to consistently get a good espresso out of my set up a couple of times a day. And to be able to try new coffees every now and then without ending up getting through a whole bag without getting anything particularly good. It feels like others have found this very do-able…so I’m pretty sure its my own shortcomings and just trying to get up the learning curve.

I fully appreciate this will need work/practice (and potentially money 🙃 ), just want to make sure I’m directing it to the right place. So this is why I thought if I could replicate with a coffee that others are able to get good extractions out of then I can at least start learning what the pour should look like, how to taste/distinguish different flavours and know a bit more which was to course correct when things go wrong.

I have tried using the espresso compass and other useful tools which I think have helped a bit, but I still feel like I’m ending up at dead ends quite a lot of the time (and/or I’m using a whole bag of coffee and ended up disappointed with the outcome).

Sorry for the very long post…just trying to give as much info as possible!

LMSC

NW9 Great post!

What roasts do you mostly like ? Not sure I got that from your post. I would stick to 2-3 beans and familiarise first. Jake’s recommendation of the North Star is excellent. Their “The docks house” blend is also very good. So is, the Blackcat’s easy to dial Chocolate Point.

NW9 When I went finer and ended up with shot times closer to 40s-45s then the pour looked a lot better and the taste was certainly better in that the astringency was gone. However, I found it often tasted a bit bland at this point (perhaps over-extraction?) as there was not much acidity but also no sweetness. I’d then usually try and reduce the ratio which sometimes gave some success.

I won’t worry too much about the shot time, unless it is too fast or the cup doesn’t taste good. The 30s-35s is the typical shot time for 1:2. You can pull longer at 1:2.5 and see if it suits your palate. I always pull 1:2.5 if on the lighter side and 1:2 of medium.

Your bland taste could be because the beans haven’t degassed yet or stale beans or may be stuck oils on your portafilter or not cleaned shower screen.

How often do you clean the shower screen and portafilter? Do you get a lot of foams on the shower screen after the shot? How do you store them?

Over extraction, IMO, unlikely to cause a bland taste. If the pour is good and the grind is tighter, it might taste bitter. How long do you rest the beans? You could also try tamping lightly and see if it improves. I don’t load more than 16.5g on the IMS basket; and 17g is max and rare if it is really a light roast.

As tompoland said, please share a clip. Thx

tompoland

Hi Neil it would be helpful if you can post a video of your pour, using a naked/bottomless basket.

Cuprajake

hi,

what temp do you have the machine set to?

i used to dose 17g in the ims 16-18g basket,

the use of the paddle can help, but i get you want to try the straight shots first, once you have the puck prep/tamp done

start with the flow control at 7 o’clock - give this about 5 seconds then open it fully and let the shot run as you would, this should help pre wet the puck and give you a good chance of getting rid of any channeling,

what coffee do you like, ? i always recommend northstar brazil £26 for 1kg but its roasted very well and very consistent,

i used to have mine set at 93 - 93 iirc

Ernie1

When I had the Bianca my recipe was almost always 19g in 38g out, for the coffee I enjoy (South American blends, med-dark roast) it was typically between 28-32 seconds. I didn’t ever change boiler temp, pre-infusion or pressure.

It’s SO easy to overwhelm yourself with the seemingly ever-growing list of tools and methods and variables here so my advice would be to go right back to basics and just get a consistent coffee you enjoy. That’s the goal, after all.

Lighter roasts and single origins can be a massive pain to dial in. I’ve been making espresso at home for over 10 years and I still avoid ultra light roasts because so much of it goes down the drain while trying to dial in. Then you spend £14 on 225g and get one enjoyable coffee from it.

Cuprajake’s North Star is a great suggestion, Rave Chatswood is a similarly priced coffee that is also very forgiving.

Leave the paddle fully open, don’t touch it. It will confuse things until you can get a decent shot without it.

Try using the spouted PF, yes it will mask any channeling but again, for now, the goal here is something repeatable that tastes good. I’m not saying channeling isn’t a bad thing, but if it tastes good, who cares.

19g in, don’t WDT, just give the PF a tap on the side until the bed of coffee looks roughly even, then tamp, quite firmly.

Dial the grind until you’re getting around 30 seconds with the above and then taste. I’m not saying every Brazilian coffee tastes great at 1:2 at 30 seconds but I’m yet to come across one that tastes bad with that recipe.

Cuprajake

id say your under rather than over extracting,

try a few different shots 1:1 , 2:1, 3:1 and see how you like it, you will have to change dial a tiny bit to each of these aiming 25-40s time is the least important factor here,

NW9

Thanks everyone for the prompt and very helpful replies.

I’ve ordered 1kg of the Northstar Brazilian given that was three positive votes so will give that a go! I will post a video of the extraction with the new coffee rather than what I have left of the old one as I’ve only got enough for about 2 more shots so doesn’t seem a lot of point asking for feedback when I won’t have an opportunity to fix!

To answer a few of the questions raised:

Temperature is set to 92C for now. I have moved this slightly up/down for lighter/darker roasts I’ve used.
Coffee preferences I’m pretty open to trying anything to be honest. I am good with the acidity that lighter roasts can provide but I also enjoy the chocolatey flavours you can get from darker roasts.
@“1984FXSE” - when you are using 19g is this with the largest basket that comes with the Lelit? The traditional “double” is noted as 16g-18g whereas I think the larger is 20-22g, but I’ve just stuck to the 16g-18g to date (usually going for 18g).
I am cleaning the shower screen about once a week. I caught this on another thread after I hadn’t done it for about 3 months and learnt very quickly this wasn’t frequently enough. Portafilter I give a rinse every time I’ve used it (tends to only be 1-2 shots) usually with a bit of soap.
For storing I have a vacuum canister so that should stop staling. Not resting enough perhaps more likely to be the problem - especially when I have used lighter roasts as I tend to be quite bad at ordering ahead of time so I run out of coffee just as the new batch arrives which doesn’t leave much time for resting.
@LMSC - Are you saying you tend to use 16-17g in the Lelit standard double basket? So perhaps I’m a bit over when I’m using 18g and should drop down 1-2g?
@Cuprajake - good advice that maybe I was still underextracting…with the coffee I have currently (almost run out) I just ignored time and ground a bit finer and let it extract all the way to 2:1 even though it took about 50 seconds. It was much better than I’ve what I’ve managed so far and finally getting some sweetness coming through (and no bitterness at all despite the very long extraction time). I think this is a good example of where I’ve previously been going wrong by trying to aim for 20-30s extraction time when it seems like you can often need to move quite far away from that! Perhaps I just need to be a bit braver and trust my taste/eyes more than general guidelines.

Thanks again everyone. Will report back this weekend when the new beans have turned up. I think its a medium-darker roast so shouldn’t need too much resting time?

MediumRoastSteam

NW9 Are you saying you tend to use 16-17g in the Lelit standard double basket? So perhaps I’m a bit over when I’m using 18g and should drop down 1-2g?

Stick to 18g for everything until you get the hang of it. LMSC does not have a Lelit. 😊- he has a very fancy machine. 😉

Ernie1

NW9

I used the middle sized 18g basket, you should find you’re able to dose 19g in there without issue. What you don’t want to do is under-dose a basket that’s too big and create loads of headroom for water.

Conversely you don’t want to dose too much that the coffee is fractured by contact with the screen.

19g should be ok though.

tompoland

NW9 might have missed it but are you using a naked basket (a must for improving your pours) and can you shoot a video of a pour?

LMSC

NW9 Are you saying you tend to use 16-17g in the Lelit standard double basket? So perhaps I’m a bit over when I’m using 18g and should drop down 1-2g?

I own a lever. Our IMS basket is 18g max. I can fill 18g on certain beans. But, I prefer the 16.5g-17g range, which is ideal on this basket.

Cuprajake

id say taste over eye, you can have some awful looking extractions that are very tastey

NW9

Thanks all - appreciate the responses.

@tompoland - I do use a naked basket and I will share a video of the pour when the new coffee I ordered arrives. I only have enough for 1 espresso (maybe 2 at a stretch) with my current beans so I didn’t think there was much point posting and then asking for tips when I don’t have any more of the same bean!

I’ve ordered 1kg of the Northstar Brazilian based on recommendations above and this is meant to arrive today so will post a video once I’ve got it and given it a go.

NW9

Evening all.

Northstar Brazil arrived and had a roast date of 9 November so figured I could go straight ahead and start using it without the need for any further resting. I’ve put half of it in a vacuum storage container and the other half in the freezer so should keep it as fresh as possible for as long as possible to allow me to to try and get this right.

Two attempts are linked below…

Attempt 1

18g in, 36g out
No use of paddle or preinfusion set as trying to keep simple
Timer is a bit off screen but it was 41 seconds
Niche Zero set at 14 (this was the second effort at this grind so there shouldn’t have been any leftover grinds from previous shot).
Pressure at pump set to 9 bar
I would say the taste was not too bad and felt like I was in the right ballpark but with further tweaks needed to get the best out of it (not sure exactly where I’d go from here).
There was definitely some notes of sweetness (but not much) and I would say some bitterness which was potentially distracting from that sweetness (perhaps indicating over-extracted?). No notes of sourness at all which I’m guessing is expected given the tasting notes suggesting more chocolatey flavours
The pour looked ok to me, I guess my main question here i

Attempt 2

Before I tried to change anything I thought I’d try to replicate the first attempt…unfortunately didn’t work put so well
18g in, 36g out
No use of paddle or preinfusion set as trying to keep simple
Time 32 seconds (not sure how I ended up 10 seconds shorter as I didn’t change anything - channelling?)
Niche Zero set at 14 (no change)
I would say the taste had a lot more bitterness to it (astringent) and no detectable sweetness (or sourness). To me this is saying that despite the shot time being closer to the 28-32s range, there’s something going pretty wrong here. Either channelling or the grind is just too coarse, but if its the latter I’m not sure how I got away with it the first time.
I am trying not to focus on how the shot looked, but to me it looks to me like a less even extraction and more evidence of an increasing flow at the end so maybe evidence of some channelling.

Would appreciate any thoughts from here on where to go next. I can try another shot with the same parameters but I am pretty confused as to why I’ve ended up with such a different result and can only think of:

Most likely is that I got channelling on the second shot but not that first. My puck prep/routine was exactly the same for both shots but I’m sure I’m not perfect so this could be the cause
Possibly caused by a difference in tamping as that’s the only real variable I think I’m not fully in control of? I weigh beans (and output from grinder) to make sure I have 18g, WDT in basket, tap once to level after WDT and then tamp. I do use the stock Lelit tamper so I am relying on applying the same (and even) pressure every time which I could be getting wrong (although I guess I’d be surprised if that caused such a big difference on its own).

One other major point I should have asked earlier is when I should be timing from? I have seen mixed views on this with some timing from pump on and others from first drip in the cup. Based on two results (very small sample of course), it feels to me like 30 seconds (or less) from pump on is less likely to get me a good result and looking back I have found this with some of my previous coffees as well.

Any views very much appreciated. If I was on my own here unable to get any advice, I’d probably be tempted to try one more shot under same parameters but I’d be leaning towards going finer so interested to know if that’s what other people would do if my instincts need work!

LMSC

NW9 Would you mind posting the video of the shot?

Cuprajake

Time from pump on, what temp you set at?

NW9

Cuprajake

93C on temp

Cuprajake

I’d say the first shot sounds about right, esp with your tasting notes.

Just a case of getting used to the bean now.

I’d say, try the next shot at the same grind and see if it comes out around the same time.

If it does then you can go a tiny bit coarser,

NW9

LMSC

Sorry I definitely didn’t make this clear! If you click on “Attempt 1” and “Attempt 2” there’s a link to a YouTube video for each.

LMSC

NW9 I didn’t see anything wrong with the first. It looks good to me. The second is perhaps a tad faster, although the pour is fine. Ensure the bed is level and tamp with an even force.

As Jake said, you may grind a bit coarser or tamp a little loosely to reduce the shot time. If you find it astringent, you could try dropping the temp and see if that helps.

9 Nov is 1.5 weeks; although it is ok to open, I would have rested for at least 2 weeks.