Worth it to upgrade?

LMSC

capuchin That said, I’m still using a smart grinder pro as my grinder, so I’ll probably need to upgrade to a niche zero. This’ll cost me £4000 overall (+ fuel/time etc collecting from London) - I’ve been thinking of a better grinder anyway.

If some like MediumRoastSteam has no clue, I stand no chance. With that sort of money for that machine, you may want to think if Niche will be enough or you would require either 83 mm or 98 mm burrs set grinder.

Please don’t forget water.

capuchin

LMSC The guy I’m buying from has a bentwood but it’s not for sale; hes replaced the slayer with the 2 group custom so still needs it. I’m thinking I should probably invest in a new grinder in any case, as I can certainly tell the difference with the smart grinder pro vs a friends.

I’ve heard that the higher you go in range, the more minute the differences in taste/quality are, and most people can only tell up to the niche zero sort of range. I’m certainly not a super taster etc, I can tell most notes but I just enjoy coffee.

capuchin

@MediumRoastSteam Yep I’ve been looking for a coffee shop around me to get an idea of what one can do, but not managed to find any. On the one hand that makes me think they can’t be that good, or artisan stores would use them, but on the other hand everywhere on youtube and the internet says they are amazing.

I’d definitely say I’d pull 3-4 a day using it, same as the bambino. I’m interested in the non-9bar standard shots so it does seem like something that could be cool, but again…. who knows how much difference it’d make to me.

@Ernie1 I think this [resale value] is what it comes down to tbh. I know nothing/not a lot about coffee machines, but in the coin and medal world I’d be pretty happy to proceed. If I do want to get into profiling, an entry level machine would cost say, £1500 anyway, and I wonder if I could sell a broken down slayer for the difference.

The other option would be graduating to a non pressure profiling ‘mid range’ machine, and then upgrading later, but again would that cost less? In theory yes, but it’s all theory.

It kinda makes it an attractive proposition assuming the only things I know are:

I’d like to upgrade the bambino plus

I’d ideally like pressure profiling
I can’t afford/justify £3500 for a coffee machine long term, but I have the cash.
I’m not sure which direction to go
The guy selling is unlikely to be selling me a dud

MediumRoastSteam

capuchin - I take you’ve been to the seller’s house and had a few coffees from the combo? Or at least used the machine a few times? How did it go?

And don’t forget… As @LMSC says… You’ll buy a £7,000 machine (new, presumably) and pair with a Niche? My brain and tastebuds would be telling me to spend at least half of that amount on a grinder, otherwise… How would you realise its full potential?

Oh, and I hope you plan to buy some good and expensive coffee to feed the machine, and also to have some good water to extract it properly as it should be.

What I’m trying to tell you is this… There’s no point in buying something so amazing to the eyes of everyone and pair with a grinder that is just catered for mainstream. I’m not saying the Niche is bad - in fact, for me it’s the best thing ever! - but it might not feel like so when you have that sitting next to your new shiny toy.

My experience was this: I had a Gaggia Classic, paired with an Eureka Mignon. I was happy as pig in mud. Then I bought a Profitec 700. And then I was wondering whether the Mignon was then the weakest link. Did I buy a grinder 3 times the price of the Mignon a few months down the line? Oh yeah.

LMSC

capuchin I’m certainly not a super taster etc, I can tell most notes but I just enjoy coffee.

To keep it simple, you don’t a £4K machine to enjoy coffee.

DavecUK

capuchin I’d just have a long hard think about what you’re getting into..

If you decide to go that way, at least we’re all here to try and help if there are problems.

Ernie1

MediumRoastSteam a £7,000 machine

It’s closer to £10k new. Which kind of begs the question why someone is happy to take a £5500 hit on it, but that’s not our business.

Ernie1

Also worth noting it might not be the easiest machine to sell. The market probably isn’t huge.

I’m not trying to talk you out of it, just things to consider if you’re having to factor the long term cost.

I’d say the Slayer is the kind of machine you buy with the intent of keeping it forever. If it’s a shorter term solution, you might be better off with the Niche and a machine closer to the £1-2k mark.

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 - £10k!!!!!! That’s crazy. Coffee must taste really great from it! :-)

capuchin

Cheers guys, think you’ve talked me out of it! I’ll just go for a grinder for now I think and experiment gradually.

@MediumRoastSteam Yep, and the coffee tasted so so much better than mine. I thought I brewed decent coffee but it was a whole new world! He even showed me how to play with preinfusion pressure and stuff which I didn’t think was possible at the time. Also the thing I like about the slayer is its small form factor and the fact it’s a lever machine without a lever, as well as the build quality.

I think for my current life situation though, it’s probably not appropriate. The water, plumbing, capacity to go wrong etc. It just seems like ‘such a good deal’ and ‘a gifthorse’ and I hate to look a gift horse in the mouth! I’m almost going to feel bad saying no. I think my next logical step is probably the Niche Zero, and maybe I’ll keep an eye out here for classified too. I did see an V Evo Leva on here that looked pretty amazing, but it got withdrawn before I got the upgrade urge. The Londiniums seem ok too

Ernie1

I suspect it’s a thank you of sorts. I’d found him a Comitia Americana medal he’d been looking for for a decade, and we got talking about coffee, over coffee.

Dusk

Ernie1

Probably because there isn’t a market for it at any price higher than that. Even at a supposed bargain price it’s available for, everyone seems to be saying to steer clear suggesting the price is still too high.

MediumRoastSteam

capuchin Yep, and the coffee tasted so so much better than mine. I thought I brewed decent coffee but it was a whole new world!

Can you tell whether it was the machine or the grinder though? 😃

We are not trying to put you off. But from what I’m reading here, it feels to me you are asking for thought process validation and whether such acquisition would make financial sense as an investment.

Honestly, if coffee machines were an investment, we wouldn’t be in this forum: We would be sailing along the Med.

As you might have figured out, making coffee, like many other hobbies, is a slippery slope. I always say that you should feel comfortable buying a coffee machine if, should the machine pack in in two year’s time, you would not need a second job to buy another one or have it fixed. It’s a rabbit hole, a slippery slope. So be very careful with the expenditure this hobby can lead you to. If it’s something that you can comfortably afford it to buy, keep and accessorise, and loose money in the process… Why not. In a way, not much different to a car. Just a lot cheaper.

Ernie1

Honestly I can say with authority owning a machine that is as much about the joy of ownership and use as it is about the output, is truly a great thing. I just think with a financial dependency resting on it it will be hard to enjoy to the fullest.

The Slayer isn’t going anywhere, may not be available at such a steal but at least if you do end up with one down the line it’ll be because it’s the best machine for you at that time rather than because a good deal came along.

The Niche alone sounds like a great upgrade.

capuchin

Thanks for all your great advice guys. After a lot of thought, I’ve decided not to go for it, and communicated it to the seller.

Points about logistics/plumbling, diminishing returns, and stuff really hit it home for me. The other thing I realised, is what brings me enjoyment is drinking over the process of building the coffee. For example I still usually use automated milk frothing, because at the end of the day I just want nice coffee. So it’s not the machine for me currently. I’ll spend £500 on a niche zero and the rest on a nice painting that I enjoy looking at every single day.

There’s actually a 2 group slayer on Ebay for 7k currently if anybody is interested.

DavecUK Yes, you’ve done a great job with this forum! (as have all the contributors.) When I signed up, it was 1 day old, and you never know with these things the motivations of long lastingness. But I’ve enjoyed browsing and watching it grow ever since staying true to purpose.

wilburpan

I don’t have any experience with espresso machines in this price range, but I do woodworking as a hobby, and the same issues being discussed here come up when woodworkers are looking to buy a used woodworking machine.

In my experience, the usual selling price (not offer price) of a used woodworking machine is around 50% of what the machine would cost new. So the price being discussed here is pretty much in line with what I might expect. That also means that it’s not a particularly good deal, as this is what one might expect to pay for a used large ticket item.

If you’re thinking of potential for resale, the issue of a limited market is very real. Shipping something like this espresso machine might be less problematic than shipping a bandsaw, but the issue of finding someone who might want to drop that much money on an espresso machine is still there. There was a comment above about whether the OP had a chance to look at the machine, which means that geographic availability for a buyer is an issue to consider as well. There might be someone willing to buy this espresso maker sight unseen, but that’s likely to be a rare event.

Finally, a lot of woodworkers I know refer to their machines as investments. They’re not. Any woodworking machine has a finite lifespan, after which it just won’t work anymore. So it’s a consumable, not an investment, and should be thought of that way. I would think that the same principle applies to espresso machines as well.

Doram

capuchin I discounted the idea at first, but he has told me I can basically keep the Slayer for 5 years and probably still sell it for the price I paid, so I can essentially consider it saving + good coffee for a few years, instead of spending?

Is this a decent way of thinking, or should I budget differently? I wouldn’t mind a bit of a net cost, but I don’t want it broken in a few years and unfixable because it’s out of warranty.

The financial thinking above strikes me as a bit odd. If you really enjoy the machine - will you want to part with it in five years? Why?

If you don’t like it, or feel you don’t need it - why use it for five years? If the machine is worth more than the asking price - why is that? If there is a good reason, and you are buying for less than what it is worth but it’s more than you need/want - why not buy it for that great price, sell it immediately for what it is worth, and buy what you do want/need/can afford?

Finally, if you want a pressure profiling machine but money is a concern, why not get a machine you can afford that is capable of flow-profiling (straight out of the box, or as an upgrade)? I can think of options for a lot less than half the price of what you thought of spending (Mara X, Minima, Bianca…).

tompoland

@capuchin for that price, I’d buy it just for the love of it. The Slayers are amazing machines. If you like medium to dark roasted beans with milk, the niche would be up to the job.

The slayer is art. it’s a joy of a machine. it’s so much more than just what you get in the cup.

But if, for you, what you value is what’s in the cup then probably pass. No judgement there, people value different aspects of espresso: the espresso, the flow, the aesthetics, the quality, smart designs, durability, functionality and more.

I place a high value on beauty, but not above functionality e.g. I have a funny looking Minion-Looking grinder called the Moca SD and a box looking espresso machine in the Decent. So it’s not all about the looks. But a slayer … wow, that’s got it all.

And he’s right, assuming it’s in good nick, you aren’t going to lose money on it.

And if you decide that you want something to match it, and the niche is not doing it for you, there are a bunch of “next level” grinders that will bring out more in the medium to light roast range e.g. the Moca SD or a P64.

Cuprajake

from a quick glance, these machines are plumb only, now id presume the seller who can afford such a machine will have sorted water,

id be looking at how easy it is to plumb in your home, as well as the associated filters and water conditioners, next up would be the up keep of the machine, is there some one local to service it should it need it,

the machine itself will be fine as they are a high class machine,

id say in terms of an investment a machine like that will hold some if not all its value, come resale time, how ever finding some one who wants to spend that cash on a machine of the age may be hard to sit on, but its end game and in theory you should never nee to replace it,

i say do it, you only live once, but only if you can afford it,

me id be buying this in a heartbeat

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255677848645

its a bargain and we know the seller too.

Ernie1

Cuprajake https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255677848645

Including a Mythos?! That’s like £8k of equipment for £3.5k!

Ernie1

Dusk

Indeed. I suppose the only thing that can keep used prices of goods inflated is lack of supply in the new market, like we’ve seen with new cars, motorbikes, computing. To use the watch example again it’s why the price of a almost-new Rolex, Patek or AP is far higher than RRP of a new one compared to say an Omega, which is much less.

CoyoteOldMan

Dusk I think there are other reasons for the ‘steer clear’ - not just the price. The multi-group Vostok are really meant for commercial premises: plumbed in, 30A spur required. Not something that one can improvise…

To be honest, given the eBay ad, I’m not even sure the seller really intends to sell. There’s no mention of what the machine is, not even the brand. There are 214 eBay ads matching his very generic title; chances it will be seen are pretty low.

Ernie1 like we’ve seen with new cars, motorbikes, computing.

Or Niche Zeros 😁