I had bought a Gaggia Classic (2012 or 2014 model I think it is), with all the necessary mods already in place (PID, OPV fitted, Rancilio steam wand). For a while I used it regularly but then I put it away and used my bean to cup exclusively. Recently went to my cousin's house who has a Sage Barista Express and he made me coffee (Union Roasted Christmas blend, Baked Apple, Cinnamon, Cocoa notes). It tasted miles better than what the bean to cup produces, not a surprise. What was a complete surprise though was it looked like it would be awful tasting. Shot ran really quickly, water, and he had absolutely no clue about ratios. That gave me an incentive to dig my Gaggia out again. Recently bought the cheap single dose SPTK 38 grinder based on Dave's review of it, to use with the Gaggia. I'm pulling decent ratio (1-2.5), in about 30 seconds. Liquid pours after about 7 seconds. But it tastes meh. I've tried various different adjustments, sometimes I get a nice result, sometimes not. What I have noticed consistently is that the temperature on the PID display drops mid shot. But this drop varies from shot to shot. Sometimes 1-2 degrees, sometimes 3 degrees, sometimes the drop occurs slowly, sometimes quickly. When I bought this Gaggia, it was always only as a stepping stone to a better espresso machine. Recently I've been eyeing up the Lelit Mara X2. Would I get better results with the Lelit?

Gaggia woes

FadedFrontiers

Not a Gaggia user so others may chip in but I don’t think a 2-3c decrease in pid temp is particularly out of the ordinary. I’d also guess it’s not what’s at fault here but either way more info would be helpful.

It would be helpful to hear what about it tastes bad and what type of beans you’re using. And what starting temp are your brewing at?

DrForinor

The beans are Union Roasted, Christmas blend, which they state as medium roast - certainly doesn’t look dark.

I started with 96degC (I saw this drop to 93 at one point) but then adjust it to 95 (with the hope it will settle between 93-94). Initially I was aiming for 1:2 ration in 25-30sec but then I updosed, grind slightly coarser, and increased the dose (that’s what one of the espresso help guides I read indicated based on what I was tasting).

What I was tasting was no sweetness at all, struggling to taste the notes indicated, and it tasted under extracted (sour). I first tried grinding finer (only a notch to start with) but then that made it taste more bitter, I never got the sweetness. That when I decided to get help from online guides (regarding how to adjust based on what you are tasting).

My very first started was 14g in, aiming for 28-30g out, in 30 seconds. What I have no eventually ended up with is 15.5g in, 43g out, 23 seconds and that has been the closest to tasting with some sweetness and closer resemblance to the indicated notes. I’m going to keep the 15.5g in, go half a notch finer for my next one and aim for 45g out, maybe take it to 26ish seconds I think.

I’m not sure if that was at all helpful 🙅🏻‍♂️

hornbyben

DrForinor do the beans have a roast date? If they’re a few months old that won’t help either

hornbyben

DrForinor the temp registered on the pid doesn’t always reflect what’s measured at the portafilter for small single boilers. In the manual of my Ito mod there is some scace data on a Rancilio Silvia showing that with no heating during the shot the temperature measured by the pid dropped from 94-88°C, but the scace (I.e. puck temp) rose to 87°C over the first 11s and was then flat for the rest of the shot (if you’re interested then download the “leva! 2.0 for Ito” from http://projectcaffe.bplaced.net/downloads.html, and look in the firmware manual page 57).

On the flip side if you can’t disable heating during a shot and the PID is kicking the element on to compensate for the incoming cold water, then you can end up with the water being too hot, especially as the water outlet pipe is usually quite close to the element. The piping also heats up so there is less cooling. The Ito manual stated they measured a 3°C increase in temperature from this effect.

In summary, if you can’t disable heating during the shot you could try changing the set point and seeing if that helps. Or perhaps the beans are just meh.

DrForinor

The roast date on the bag is 1st Nov 2022

hornbyben

DrForinor on the older end then, but not terrible. I usually try to drink all my coffee in the 2 - 6 week post roast window

DrForinor

hornbyben

What do you do with beans that might be older than 6 weeks?

This was the reason for me updosing, and increasing yield (it’s what my search revealed for older beans), and it certainly improved it for me.

hornbyben

DrForinor accept poorer flavour if I end up in that position, and try to buy fresher or drink quicker next time. If I know I definitely won’t be able to (like decaf that I keep in for guests) then I freeze them.

Most decent roasters will send you coffee less than a week from roast (assuming Royal Mail don’t take forever to actually get it to you).

Jollybean

I used to set my PID to 102 degrees to allow for the tail off in temp. You could try that to see if the flavour improves or not.

DrForinor

Jollybean

Thank you, I’ll try that.

Given the drawbacks that still exist in a Gaggia with a PID, (and keeping in mind that I always knew the Gaggia would only be a stepping stone), would the Lelit Mara X2 be a worthy upgrade?

I don’t steam much milk. Usually make my espresso, add water from the kettle as much as I need them add milk straight from the fridge. But I want a machine that will give me consistency without me worrying about it or having to make unnecessary adjustments for the lack of consistency.

Elcarajillo

I am working through the Union Christmas offering at the moment, I have changed grind, temperature ratio.

To date I have not had a good cup of coffee, at the moment I am trying 18 gms / 25 sec / 92. Slight improvement.🤔

Machine Verona.

DrForinor

Elcarajillo

18g in, how many out? I’m finding a ratio closer to 1:3 seems to be better than a 1:2.

Did you try varying the temperatures? If so, what did you try and how was it?

Do we think it’s perhaps the beans then?

Dusk

Based on your setup, you should be able to make a decent coffee. Is your opv set to around 9 bar? If you’ve got the basics covered (fresh beans, decent grinder etc) then it’s worth playing around with settings, if you feel like you’re miles off then you’ve almost got nothing to lose by making bigger changes to temp/ratio etc

DrForinor

Dusk

The seller that I bought it from started that it was set to 9bar, I’ve so far based everything on trust.

Jollybean

Hi - I have never used a Mara X2 so can’t really comment on how much of an upgrade it would be. However i did change from my Gaggia to a second hand Londinium and have never regretted it. The Londinium is very consistent and although a good shot on the Gaggia would be hard to tell from a standard shot on the Londinium it is the consistency that makes it for me. Even if the shot runs fast or slow I seldom have a shot destined for the sink. That and less tangible things like the look of the machine, the tactile nature of using the lever, the simplicity of cleaning and maintence, the simplicity of use and the joy of quiet pours (My Londinium only uses the pump to fill the boiler, not for preinfusion so only kicks in say once in every 5 shots).

I also dont know how much is just that the lever profile with declining pressure and temperature just suits how I like my espresso shots. I tend to like medium roast beans and the Londinium manages these very well indeed but you might need a different machine if you prefer light roasts in order to play with temperature, preinfusion and pressure to extract the very best from them.

I also own a vintage Arrarax Caravel lever from the 1960s which makes superb ristretto shots so it could just be that levers produce coffee how i like it to taste!

Before plumping for a machine I would recommend getting some hands on experience with different types of machine, possibly at Bella Barista if that is near you, or at a forum day if any of those are ever arranged again in future.

You could also ask if anyone near you has a Mara that they would be willing to let you have a play with. Worth a try!

DrForinor

Jollybean

You say you haven’t regretted it, and it’s the consistency that you live in your Londinium. Did you find the lacking in consistency?

As much as I’d love to have a play at Bella Barista, I live in Aberdeen - quite a trek.

I’m also fairly restricted for space, which is another reason I like the Mara. I would much prefer a machine that can offer consistency, and I be the weak link as opposed to me being the weak link and then having my machine add another kink in the chain so to speak.

Jollybean

Consistency issues with the Gaggia were mainly on steaming milk where sometimes I could not get a good swirl. Shots also but to a lesser extent as I could get pretty tasty shots say 70% of the time. Aberdeen to Bella Barista is a bit of a trek I agree 🙁

hornbyben

The ECM puristika is a nice compact option if you don’t drink milk drinks.

Alternatively you could mod your gaps further if you enjoy that sort of thing, which would enable pressure control. The Ito I did is one option, or the gaggiuino (https://github.com/Zer0-bit/gaggiuino) seems popular with gaggia owners.

DrForinor

hornbyben

Although I’m not big of milk based coffee, when my sister comes she does like milk based coffee so it still is kind of essential for me.

Honestly I can’t be bothered modding (which is why I bought a modded Gaggia in the first place). I would much rather spend some money and get a really nice machine that will do it’s job well without me having to tinker much with it.

FadedFrontiers

DrForinor in that case I’d go for a dual boiler (DB) where you can keep the steam boiler turned off when it’s not needed to save energy.

Mara x2 is a heat exchanger (HX), Lelit or Elizabeth is their DB models and if you want minimal fuss and general consistency then the Elizabeth is the one to go for since it doesn’t have flow control or an e61 group which takes longer to heat up and requires more maintenance.

DrForinor

FadedFrontiers

Is the Elizabeth the only other option? I know it’s superficial, but I don’t particularly like it’s aesthetics.