So my venture into real coffee is now about 2 weeks old… My equipment sits at: Moka Pot French Press Hand grinder Real beans :) Stand-alone milk frother and handheld version. TBH so far it’s a step up - just the smell when grinding the beans puts a smile on my face. So next steps - where should my first foray into espresso be. I was considering getting a picopresso or flair as a basic way to make espresso… though my end goal would be a proper machine - definitively with the milk steamer / wand as the milk frother is not great. Ideally I would like to buy once learn and enjoy - without the chopping and changing through multiple machines :) - famous last words huh. A lever machine looks tempting - I like the more manual approach - rather than just pushing a button.. the process being as much fun / interest as the end result. I also take the view of buy well but once - so happy to wait for the right purchase rather than jump at the first option. Right best stop here before I carry on rambling :) Advice and opinions welcome Thanks Matt

@"MattH"#p34223 - hello there. Definitely the best way to save money is to buy what you want outright. The problem is, sometimes you don’t know what you want, and want to try things on. What’s your budget for a machine and grinder? What’s your consumption like? How many coffees (and what types) per day/week? If you want to save money, it’s always good to buy second hand and then sell it on for the same price or small loss. If you buy it new, my advice would be to buy something that you want, and then sell it on - but do bear in mind you’d likely lose money on that. Reading your post above…. I’d skip the Flair and aim for your “end goal”. Take a look at the classifieds if you want to buy second hand. We can tell you more once we know your budget.

Agree with the above, spent a small fortune moving from grinder to grinder and machine to machine I'd say a great setup is going to cost £1600 ish new with warranty. Used deals can be had and may get you down to around the 1300 mark, me I'd try to spend the extra just for the security of a warranty

@"MattH"#p34223 Two more questions if I may, Matt: 1. Budget - you can get semi-decent espresso for £200 (or less - if you want a DeLonghi Dedica for free, come over and pick it up from me; all you need is a £20 non-pressurised basket, adjust the OPV to 9.5 bar, and you are set), or you can easily spend many thousands. 2. What do you want from an espresso machine? Multiple pours in quick succession because you'd often drink espresso with guests? Or one coffee a day for yourself? Maximum consistency vs. 'manual tuning'? Minimal fuss vs. complex set-up?

Hi, wow that was quick :) So grinder wise I have the Mazzer Omega so will use that to start with (though I realise the espresso grinds may get old quick on the arms !) - but in the future I would look for probably a niche zero - or something like the Mazzer major in the classifieds (if I could find somewhere to put a machine that size!.) Consumption wise currently its 1/2 3 cup Mokkas as milk drinks (latte) each day - or a large french press. Over the weekend I was using the 10 cup moka to make drinks for the family - though that would be the exception not the rule. I think if I had an espresso it would be 2/3 at a time - probably twice a day (not all for me I might add…) Budget wise I would say 2k is the limit - oh and I would want what I buy to be as beautiful as it is functional.. (bit like my taste in hifi) From the last questions @"CoyoteOldMan"#p34226 I would say consistency is key - I dont mind learning and tweaking if needed but I would not want to be constantly changing aspects just to get out a good cup. For me I want to make good coffee- but not spend hours each time whilst the missus just looks on and chuckles at me :) Oh and thank you for the kind offer - thats very generous. Thanks Matt

I think a good place to start that will not break the bank would be with a manual machine like a Flair. Lance Hedrick, who contributes to this forum, did a nice video about an inexpensive way to get into espresso on a budget. With the recommended setup you can make top notch coffee if you are willing to learn and put in some effort initially. https://youtu.be/-FP9Tnl3OFQ

Your grinder is top notch so you can stick with that. A Flair 58 would be my nomination. Worth the extra $ (over the other Flair models) to have predictiable and stable temperature.

I'd jump right to the Bianca End game, reliable, job done No messing with manual lever machines etc and a pretty machine.

> @"MattH"#p34227 Consumption wise currently its ½ 3 cup Mokkas as milk drinks (latte) each day > @"MattH"#p34227 Budget wise I would say 2k is the limit > @"MattH"#p34227 So grinder wise I have the Mazzer Omega You have a great budget. If I were you: - go for the Lelit Bianca as @"Cuprajake"#p34237 says. That will pretty much maximise your budget and you’ll have a beautiful machine. You can then upgrade the grinder at some point if you think that’s worth the while. - OR… go for the Lelit Elizabeth or ACS Minima if you want to have some spare spending power and fancy adding the Niche to the equation straight away. I’d stay away from the Flair as suggested above if that’s not what you would like on the long term and if you enjoy milk drinks. With the Bianca, bear in mind it requires some periodic maintenance to lube the cam lever. With the Elizabeth or the Minima, that’s not required as the group is solenoid operated. There’s a reviews section in this forum where you can find some detailed reviews of the machines above. Good luck with your decision making, and ask away! 👍

Already some great advice in this thread and having owned a Bianca I’d also recommend it. Two things worth considering; Hand grinding for espresso gets very old very quickly. It takes a lot longer and a lot more effort to grind at espresso levels of fine. Making good espresso as a beginner can be frustrating and time consuming (but ultimately very rewarding) and if you have to hand grind every wasted shot, it’ll add to the frustration. Secondly, some people just don’t take to espresso making at home. That’s totally fine, ask most baristas and they’ll say they don’t even bother and just make brew at home. It quickly becomes an enjoyable and straightforward process if you stick with it but plenty of people get put off by the aforementioned frustration or the mess that *can* be made or the maintenance. If that ends up being the case, you’ll want a machine that holds its value for resale. Machines like the Bianca will do, machines like a Sage probably not so much. That’s not necessarily a comment on the quality of the machine (I’ve not owned one so can’t comment) rather it’s a very popular beginner machine so there tends to be a fair few being resold. If your budget is concrete, a Lelit Elizabeth and Niche would tick all the functional boxes (with the bonus of being able to grind for brew as well). If there’s room, the Bianca is a lovely machine.

Thanks all - plenty to go read up on! This will not be a rushed purchase so time to do proper research 👍 Cheers Matt

Where to start..

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 With a lever you’re adding a huge variable with pressure/flow.

That’s not quite true. If you have a spring lever, you’ll get the same flow and same pressure profile time and again.

Ernie1

MediumRoastSteam

Sorry yes I should’ve specified the Flair.

Although I’m showing my lever-ignorance now. If the profile is exactly the same every time, what’s the point of a lever? I don’t mean that to sound petulant, genuinely curious.

MediumRoastSteam

Ernie1 - I asked a similar question not long ago.

With a direct lever, you can control the pressure applied - so you can “profile”.
With a spring lever, you can retard the lever to decrease pressure, or force the lever up (I think) to increase pressure. I don’t think anyone does that.

My understanding is that the “lever profile” (for spring lever) are able to deliver a high volume of water under the same declining pressure - and that makes the difference, apparently. Most likely my tastebuds would never pick up the difference, but that’s what the lever users say.

tompoland

It’s a fair question.

John Buckman of decent espresso fame was interviewed about a year ago (published in “The Lever” magazine) and said that in his opinion the introduction of the Spring was the death of the lever machine. But then has a significant bias towards being able to control ever aspect of an espresso shot. Thats not a good or bad thing but it is a distinct preference.

For others, a part of the point of the sprung lever is that it automatically gives you declining pressure as the shot progresses. This is considered ideal by a lot of people. More pressure at the start when the puck is giving up the most of the good oil and less pressure as the puck disintegrates which keeps the flavor fuller and better balanced and the viscosity higher. Yes, it’s not practically controllable but it’s darned near perfect if you enjoy a particular style of espresso.

Add to that the ability to determine preinfusion pressure that some modern sprung levers have and its a pretty handy package.

John_Yossarian

tompoland I totally agree with your assessment, I have stuck with Profile 1 on the V, which is the closest (I believe @DavecUK had something to do with this 😀) I can get with profiling to spring lever pressure profile and the sweetness of the shots, wow.

chlorox

tompoland

On the john buckman quote, did he mean springs werr the death of the manual direct lever or of levers in general? Because if it were the latter, then i dont understand it because the spring lever made true espresso possible for the first time and without the spring, a direct lever woiod not have been commercially practical to use in a cafe.

Ernie1

Thanks both, that makes sense.

I can definitely see the appeal of a fully manual lever for the tactility and intend at some point down the line to get a La Pavoni just for the looks/lever experience but it wouldn’t ever be my first choice of machine.

ajohn

MattH ie the kettle and nanofoamer).

My wife uses a foamer with a Tasimo. The foam is nothing like steamed milk. Far too stiff but there is a bit of an art to steaming milk. It needs a bit of practice. You appear to be mostly interested in milk based drinks not drinking espresso shots. I don’t as I find them too strong so drink americano. So strong I can’t detect the various sensations when drinking them. Some say they can eventually, The bean flavours are still available via an americano, Same problem tuning those in.

One of the important aspects with brewing coffee is the water temperature. Logical as too high and volatiles will be driven off and that is an aspect that influences taste. A daft example. Rather than use a kettle we switched to hot water dispenser. I can dial the amount that comes out also set temperature. Say I use instant. At 100C not much difference to a kettle. At 95C some foam forms. At 85C even more. Taste changes too. This would make me wonder about any stove top set up. I have used some in the past and wasn’t impressed compared with an espresso machine.

So for some methods of brewing coffee from ground beans some form of hot water dispenser might help. Maybe a bit more control of temperature than ours has. These things can scale up and can often have a filter fitted which helps. We get rather soft water so not much of a problem. Scale can also cause the death or problems with espresso machines.

Pour over is popular and easier to use a hand grinder than for an espresso machine. Kettles for this are available at all sorts of prices. It’s a well regarded method. That and a hot water dispenser might fit well but electric pour over kettles are also available. Some see this method a lot quicker than using an espresso machine. Maybe down to heat up time with the majority of them.

I did know a bit about real espresso machines when I started but early experiences were with a tiny HX machine. Ok for small cups but had a safety valve that may have caused a small piece of metal to shoot out and make a hole in the ceiling. Blade grinder too - not a good idea really. Burr is better more or less what ever one is chosen. Some wont grind fine enough for an espresso machine.

When it came to buying a real espresso machine I went down the Sage route after much consideration. Not my current DB. Reasonable cost and to gain more experience. They are popular machines but do need some practice getting the best out of them as do others. ;) I chose a 54mm portafilter machine knowing that I would probably want a filter basket with a capacity between the 2 they supply. Most want milk based drinks and their double is ideal for that. A problem that may have been fixed now as other items for these machines now appear on Amazon. The other problem is the need for an engineer to fix problems. Some parts are now available if people can diy. Scale and lack of maintenance is the usual problems that crop up eventually. Last for ever. Maybe not but all are likely to need attention at some point.

Ernie1

Something that struck me recently is that when I look at the machines I’ve had over the past 15 years or so - Gaggia Classic, Silvia, Bianca, Linea Mini; the more expensive they get, the more forgiving they are.

Making a kind of inverse correlation to the home espresso learning curve.

My Silvia made some really great espresso but everything needed to be perfect, and even then temp instability would sometimes ruin a shot.

The Bianca was far more forgiving, and with the paddle meant I could ‘save’ any shots that weren’t quite dialled in.

The LM I can almost wave a bag of beans and carton of Oatly at and it’ll prepare a brilliant coffee. It’s almost harder to make a bad coffee than a good one.

I’m not saying anyone should rush into spending £1500+ on their first machines but if it’s at all affordable, even if it doesn’t work out the loss on some of the popular higher end machine may not be too dissimilar to reselling an entry level machine.

A looming possible recession probably isn’t the best time to be testing this theory but food for thought!

ajohn

I had a temperature problem with a Barista Express but it was only noticeable if I made and tasted 3 drinks on the trot. More of a strength of the brew than a taste variation. The 2nd and 3rd were the fine. Cured by preheating. My way but another suggestion is to run a little bit of steam before pulling the actual shot. Flavours mentioned for beans could reproduced probably without the preheat.

Totally different a Piccino. Temp control not good. A rather different taste of coffee comes out but still a decent drink. ;) I aught to check it over carefully and sell it. It will steam milk but rather slowly and temp stability on steam probably isn’t good.

Gaggia is very popular but many buyers seem to modify them rather quickly including adding PID.

All Sage machines give at least reasonable temp stability. The penalty is the need to keep an eye on descaling.

My way of preheating was pretty simple. A 2nd portafilter with an empty dual wall filter basket in it. Just run a part shot through that. Flow rates will be in the range the PID is intended to work at. I bought a used one to convert to bottomless. These can be bought now.

Grinders - a rabbit hole. What ever some one buys other options for specific reasons are likely to be mentioned. Never seen any suggestions about changing from an EK47s.

MattH

Thanks all….. 😱🤠

So from the above comments maybe I should just burn it all and get the Micra 👍😂

Seriously I like the more mechanical options as they are small and portable - the kitchen is not yet a space I could easily place a full machine. I suspect I would need a coffee island/trolley.

My attempts with the nanofoamer are improving slowly - for what it does it works well.

Too many decisions - luckily I have a couple of moka bits arriving from Italy on Friday - might keep me busy for a bit!

wilburpan

MattH Seriously I like the more mechanical options as they are small and portable - the kitchen is not yet a space I could easily place a full machine.

Maybe that’s a reason to reconsider the 9Barista! 😉

Seriously, that’s exactly why I was interested in it – our counter space is limited, and we didn’t have the room for an espresso machine, even a small one, like the Breville Bambino.

MattH

wilburpan Hello :) - when you bought the 9barista did you get the IMS basket or just stick with the standard supplied one ?

I had seen online somewhere that you could also get a third party cover for the portafilter rather than the rubber insert - have you tried that at all ?

Cheers

Matt

wilburpan

MattH Hello :) - when you bought the 9barista did you get the IMS basket or just stick with the standard supplied one ?

I had seen online somewhere that you could also get a third party cover for the portafilter rather than the rubber insert - have you tried that at all ?

I have and use the IMS basket and the insert that came with the 9Barista. Works great!

I actually never tried the stock basket. But using the IMS basket makes me feel better, so there’s value in that.

ajohn

:) I used to have my machine in the living room on a side table. The kitchen had rather limited worktop space. There is space for one now as more counter space which my wife is very good at filling up.

Various cups etc. No not now just the mug also slimmer scales with a higher capacity. Hand grinder - no thanks for espresso, Beans go into a vented can for several days now to condition. Then a plunger type for use..

The Bambino from various reviews and write ups appears to be Barista Express less grinder and pressure gauge. plus the milk stuff, Only way to be sure though is to look inside.

ajohn

wilburpan But using the IMS basket makes me feel better, so there’s value in that.

;) You may have made a good point there. I tried them too but don’t use them any more.

tompoland

chlorox essentially he was saying that putting springs into lever machines removed, in large part, the ability to vary the pressure.

DavecUK

tompoland essentially he was saying that putting springs into lever machines removed, in large part, the ability to vary the pressure.

It did, unless you purposefully retard the lever. It also makes the assumption that the ability to profile pressure is superior. Over the years, although useful, most profiling ends up looking like a lever profile. The one thing levers do, is fill in a unique way. The more advanced ones are then effectively a PID controlled boiler forming part of the group.

Temperature stability on the generation of new dual boiler levers is rather excellent and there is the ability to produce a declining, falling or rising temperature shot. These are not the levers of the past, where temperature is highly unstable. Starting off super hot, then cooling and for subsequent shots different again from even the one you did previously.

Sure a spring may have impacted the lever of yesteryear in a few ways…not only pressure, but also the ability to control the flow rate of water entering the group! This ability to let water enter slowly could possibly mitigate the effect of very hot water entering the group. Unlike home levers, the commercial manual levers had big boilers and didn’t need to run so hot. Today the most modern levers, rightly, remove the link between steaming and brewing

MattH

So time for a quick update… still enjoying the research into possible espresso machines - the heart is set on a Linea Micra for its small size, style and build.

But thats a big purchase so not one I will jump into.

I am also still considering the Flair or 9barista (looking forward to hearing what @tompoland thinks of it ) as a toe in the ocean - but tbh I am also really enjoying the E&B moka pot with IMS screen. This has really improved the moka - it seems to easier to nail each time - nice clean cup and I don’t seem to be over extracting. I just pull it when I get the bug surge towards the end - and the water remaining in the tank is nice and clear.

Now all I seem to tinker with its the amount and grind size based on whichever coffee I am trying out.

Speaking of grind size - and always up for trying other stuff when a opportunity arises I purchased the Commandante C40 which came up on the forum.

I have to say its lovely - it feels very solidly built - its easy to clean - you have plenty of access and a good view through the grinder. Its weighty in the hand more than I expected after using the Omega. Nice smooth action - and feels good to use.

So what I like is the catch cup - does not hold onto the grinds - it being clear means I can see what left and how its lying when I flip it into the moka pot. The Omega being a solid aluminium cup - it seems a bit more sticky.

However the Omega has a very easy visible setting on the outside ring - and I have to keep resetting the C40 back to 0 before counting out the clicks - its not a big issue - more a slight annoyance.

Being the completist I am :) - I have picked up the red clix kit and the longer handle with the larger handle.

Having just also bought a Osmio Zero - its made my morning much simpler with the hot water on tap. It took about 4 tanks to get rid of that initial taste but its already a major part of the kitchen.

Lastly being a fan of the milk drinks - the practise is starting to pay off with the nanofoamer. I can not get a nice smooth mixture in about 30 seconds which probably would make good latte art if I was any good at doing it (which as yet I am not).

Main issue of course if the loss of heat - as you have to heat the milk first - then when you mix it with the nano - it will lose heat quite quickly. This is where having a steam wand would be great - patience is a virtue :)

Cheers

Matt

tompoland

MattH good timing Matt just posted latest impressions and mentioned you to make it easy for you to find it. For others it’s at the bottom of this thread (although the bottom won’t remain the bottom for long) https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/blog/1108-video-of-me-making-espresso-with-the-9barista

MattH

tompoland So now you have played with both the 9barista and Flair - how do you feel about them as first options into espresso (ignoring the portability as thats just a added bonus)

« Previous Page Next Page »