I have had this for some time. Being unsure I bought a refurb when these were around on ebay I bought it early 2018. ;) The refurb seemed to be descale and check all was working. I noticed that steam came on later than brew so descaled a couple of time which levelled things up. More even boiling noises from it as well. As the case needed a good degunk with window cleaner I don't think it was anything like new. No problems with O ring seals. Scale sludge caused solenoid rattle but easily cleaned up. Probably time to replace it now. Anyway about 4 or 5 months ago it had the overheat and heating when not on problem that crops up now and again. This usually means a triac has failed. If that pretty easy to replace but haven't checked yet. As this is the usual failure in this area be an interesting thing to look at. It might be the triac drive chip that has failed or the triac itself. Spares in the UK are now somewhat easier. A source can be found by searching Sage bean to cup spares. At the DB end they seem to have concentrated on the Oracle. Oz or NZ is the other option. I've not tried getting the part number of coffee classics and ordering off Sage, I asked Coffee Classics about spares some time ago when they stopped selling them. :) Anyway I want to get all traces of scale out of it. That is a fair amount of work and not convenient at the moment so after some thought ordered a new one.Too many things about it suite me compared with others.The heat up time isn't the only one. It's ready to use as soon as I have Niche'd the grinds. Taste tells me not to bother preheating a bottomless portafilter but that wouldn't add that much time anyway. The problems with Sage machines often come down to maintenance. I came across someone who wanted to turn off the clean me lights on another of their machines to save doing it. Scale often figures in these machines. Even their engineers see that. My previous BE is now with my son. ;) I think he uses the grinder timer and trims with the razor tool. Or maybe to check weight.

I enjoyed the several Sage DB's that I owned. The only problem is/was I have no skills with spanners (or come to think of that, very few actual spanners either) therefore had no hope of longevity. A few years ago there was always a stream of reductions available from reputable websites, but now, it seems harder to find a deal. I would have another if circumstances dictated (god forbid!). When you do the Gary Dyke hacks which were legendary you could get a really good shot from them

@"dfk41"#p34462 what are the legendary Gary hacks? (Sorry I’m late to the party!)

@"scwheeler"#p34472 If you email me at my signature email, I will find them and send them to you! Found them! https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/threads/sage-db-is-this-acceptable.32158/page-2

@"dfk41"#p34474 most kind thank you. Something new to play around with!

@"scwheeler"#p34475 The first cuppa I had, I found oodles of fruit from where there shad been none previously! If ever I had one again it is the first thing I would do! Let us know how you get on!

@"dfk41"#p34474 Did you know CFUK don't allow linking to anything on this forum. 🤣

Both forums are black listed. Even the words haha

Sage Dual Boiler

dfk41

DavecUK I am not surprised, but there again, we are not that pathetically insecure and petty are we?

ajohn

Not for me. Had my play with pre infusion etc and didn’t like what came out. I had set a different pre infusion time but found standard was best. I need some fruity beans to see what happens with Niche and Mazzer mini. Light roasts were not a problem with Niche but could be better ?? Don’t know without other grinders to try, Some will take a while to get going.

Same with 40sec brews. Tried didn’t like. I have been known to use 20sec for my wife, Sometimes works out without changing the grind.

;) Spanners - at least there no need for them descaling, Just a screwdriver.

dfk41

I found this old video with the hacks I suggested done. I always think the lower bar extraction worked well

ajohn

I played around with all sorts for a while after using the machine the usual way for - not sure ~12 months but didn’t find anything better. ;) I usually experiment with monsooned though as drink lots. I’m bound to have tried others. I finished up cutting back pre infusion to the standard setting based on results. I had been using longer due to using a BE before.

I’m trying grinds straight into the portafilter with Niche at the moment. Looks like I can consistently get good /better pours compared with using the grinds cup. :( Having taste and smell problems with my monsooned though. Not sure why yet. Could be that the roaster shut down for the Xmas week and orders kept coming in so have been extremely busy. I had to contact them several days after ordering. Usually shipped the day after I order. Or the new machine. Not sure.

nickr

I’ve had my Sage Dual Boiler for a couple of months now, having previously owned an L1 for about 10 years. What’s surprised me is that to get the same sort of flavours in the cup as I was getting with the L1, I need to set the temperature to about 94degC. I thought the general consensus was that L1’s couldn’t do these sort of temps. The other surprise is the Sage takes at around15 minutes to be ready to pull a shot to this sort of temperature. Another and more welcome surprise is how forgiving it is on shot preparation - wonderful. Far easier and more reliable results than the L1

dfk41

nickr Over the years, I owned 4 or 5 Sage Dual Boilers and if it were not for longevity issues couples with my infamous lack of skills with spanners, I might have kept them longer! If you want the work around Nick for pulling the shot using pre-infusion, then email me. it involves going into the advanced menu and altering a couple of things, which is fully reversible in seconds. With the Sage, you can set the temp accurately whereas with the earlier L1’s, you pulled the shot at whatever the system gave to you. With the right bean/shot prep you could get very good results, but, you really are guessing!

Grahamsphillips

nickr So I take it you prefer the SDB? I loved my DB.. my son has it now.. but I must say I’m hugely enjoying my L1 and find it pretty consistent!

Petre

This is an actual measurement of a machine I have (Rancilio Silvia Pro), the PID was set to the red line. This is when the machine was hot, when it was colder, the graph was different. If you take flow in consideration, things will become even more mixed up. My point is, when you have so much variation and you have to pick a single number things become debatable and each manufacturer may have its own way of calibration, that’s why I think the temps are not always transferable from machine to machine, you need to dial in for that specific setup.

DavecUK

Petre The manufacturers tend to test them in “Lab” conditions, not realistic home use….I believe this is a mistake. It has the expediency of being quicker and seemingly more organised and professional.

I temperature test as a user would use the machine, with long periods of inactivity, then a couple of shots, or sometimes inactive for a while then 4 shots. This is how machines are really used and they can react quite differently than during “Lab” tests. Any PID setup is always a compromise to try and guess the use pattern.

These tests also have to be done across the entire espresso temperature range (used to be 90 to 95), with modern trends this now has to be 88 to 95. Of course this means another compromise, as you want more accuracy in the middle and less as we get to the extremes

nickr

I agree, methodology is very difficult. I’ve been measuring the temp in a polystyrene cup at 5 min intervals. I’m not bothered by absolute temperatures, I’m just looking to see the point at which it ceases to increase. I know for a fact that the machine is not ready for use at 5 minutes. I now think it stabilises somewhere between 10 and 15.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK I temperature test as a user would use the machine, with long periods of inactivity, then a couple of shots, or sometimes inactive for a while then 4 shots

An interesting point. As a user, I’m the total opposite. I turn the machine on and pull a shot, and turn it off. 6 hours later, I do the same. So the “periods of inactivity” (presumably leaving the machine on), “a couple of shots” and “4 shots”, for me at least, are totally irrelevant.

DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam That would be covered by my warm up testing. It’s why temp testing takes so long.

ajohn

It’s a waste of tome running water through the brew head and measuring it’s temperature. It needs a scace Complicated by pre infusion even then. There is a video of a DB using a scace on youtube, I might knock one up one day :) but @DavecUK probably wont tell me what he uses as a grinds substitute.

I’ve left my new DB OPV at 10bar. LOL So am using it as Sage intend. Brew pressure varies a bit according to beans. 9 to 9.5bar. That should allow the volumetrics to work but still working on shot consistency. Now very genera;;y fixed 30sec giving ~2g range on a 30g shot from 12.7g. The ratio on my monsooned is now lower than it was. Don’t think that is down to 9.5bar. More likely to be more even extraction throughout the puck.

Using the DB. Turn it on. Weigh the beans, grind - in the Niche cup again, Bit of stir. Into the portafiter. Level, tap down ;) usually level a bit more. 2 slope leveller, tamp. The machine is usually showing 93C by then so pull the shot. Shot or shots done - turn it off.

Some fit the portafilter and allow that to heat up first. I’ve found no need using a bottomless portafilter, No taste change, Heating that would probably add ~10min.

Pompeyexile

This question is aimed specifically at Dave.

Why given that whilst I appreciate it may not be or ever will be a Lelite or Vesuvius or AC Minima in looks or build quality, the Sage however being a dual boiler machine with the ability to change parameters to a certain degree, you have never (as far as I can see from this forum or any of your videos) had a play with it, to see just how good or bad it is in comparison.

The reason I ask, is that it would be interestig to hear what someone with your wealth of experience and knowledge on the higher end machines thinks of it, given that to a certain extent it is trying to emulate what more established and expensive machines do. Or to put it another way, how good a shot can it produce that is acceptable to a super taster such as yourself.

Plus if I’m honest, I bet you could give some very useful tips for an owner like me, who think I know what I am doing but if I were honest, make every shot with fingers crossed.

DavecUK

Pompeyexile Plus if I’m honest, I bet you could give some very useful tips for an owner like me, who think I know what I am doing but if I were honest, make every shot with fingers crossed.

No one has ever sent me one to try. I suspect it’s such a well known brand and machine that an engineering review isn’t required as sage are not going to change anything based on my say so. It’s also a no brainer for a retailer to stock, this means Bella Barista have no need to send me one to see if it’s worth selling.

Obviously there is zero incentive (in fact less than 0) for me to buy one as it would just be £1000 of my own money spent to give people my free, non sponsored, non monetised opinion of the machine and any hints or tips? Nowadays, I can’t do things that cost me that sort of money, especially as I need to think about a new phone, to take better photos and video.

dfk41

Pompeyexile I have had several of them and I actually quite like them, if only they would sort out longevity and spares issues/ Have a read through this thread where there are some really good pointers matey. Apologies if I have posted this before.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/threads/sage-db-is-this-acceptable.32158/page-2

Cuprajake

Kinda agree. They get the ‘appliance’ badge but they work quite well

When I got into coffee I did the usual, buy a gaggia, read all the info watched the vids got a 1zpresso grinder.

Hand ground 1kg of beans and sinked it all

Bought a sage duo temp pro, first shot was sublime.

capuchin

Not sure it’s in their interests to sort out longetivy/spares. I think Sage are great consumer devices that serve sell at the entry level and last long enough for people to either move on or buy a new one. Strongly suspect they aren’t designed to last forever.

I’m still fond of my bambino plus. Got it in the office now, and it definitely does a job. When it dies I’ll replace, but no rush.

Chriss29

I’ve had my dual boiler 2 years in June and apart from the steam wand starting to leak a bit of water it’s going fine. I distil and remineralise my water but despite this, apparently scale is the likely cause of the leak. I’ve been advised that even though I use ‘clean’ water I should still descale every 6 weeks.

MediumRoastSteam

Chriss29 I’ve been advised that even though I use ‘clean’ water I should still descale every 6 weeks.

Whoever told you that… they are talking nonsense.

If you remineralise with non-scaling minerals, such as sodium bicarbonate or potassium bicarbonate, then there’s no point in descaling because it won’t cause scale.

Scale can only be caused by calcium or magnesium. So question for you: what do you remineralise your water with?

Cuprajake

Depends on what you add back to the water if it will scale.

Is yours modded at all

I’ve always liked the dual boiler they do