I have a medium dark decaf bean that was roasted on Dec 8 and then opened, re-packaged into 110g vacuum sealed bags and frozen on Dec 15 (I would have let the beans rest longer, ideally 3 weeks, but I had no choice but to open the bag, as I needed the coffee). I have been removing a 110g bag from the freezer, letting the bag defrost and warm to room temperature, opening the bag and transferring the beans to 6 stoppered 18g glass bottles, which I use within 2 to 3 days. My best tasting shots with this bean were on December 21, and the taste has been going downhill ever since. I have tried to replicate that great tasting Dec 21 recipe without success. *Is it possible that the beans have staled in the freezer?* It's only been 6 weeks since they were roasted and 5 weeks since they were frozen (rested 1 week, then frozen for 5). I did read somewhere once, that once you open up a frozen bag, it will soon age to it's original age, as if it was never frozen. This does not make sense to me. *Is it possible that these beans have grown stale?* Can’t be!! They’ve been vacuum sealed and frozen!

My personal (and fairly unscientific) take on the matter is: 1. Beans will stale, no matter what you do to them. 2. The rate of staling is not constant no matter what you do to them. 3. Murphy's law applies to coffee staling, so any particularly good coffee will stale faster.

> @"CoyoteOldMan"#p36125 Murphy’s law applies to coffee staling, so any particularly good coffee will stale faster. 👌😂

I vacuum pack my coffee and freeze but roughly a day/day and a half packets. I remove from the freezer in the evening and move to the vacuum container to defrost then next morning fill doses into vials. I didn’t notice any coffee going stale even after few months in the freezer although it starts degrading quicker after removing from the freezer hence daily packets for me. It’s much more work initially but get very good results this way.

> @"JHCCoffee"#p36121 it possible that these beans have grown stale? Can’t be!! They’ve been vacuum sealed and frozen! I’m with @"prezes"#59 . I freeze and vacuum pack my beans, and I haven’t noticed any signs of staleness. I did notice beans going stale inside a an airscape after two weeks, but not with the vacuum/freezer method. In fact, I now skip the freezer and just vacuum the beans, keeping them in a dry and cool place. @"JHCCoffee"#639 - the other possibility are your tastebuds. Maybe on the 15th of December the perception was they tasted great. Maybe because it was a new bean, and with great contrast with the bean you were using before? Maybe the weather turned colder and you had a blocked nose? Just trying to say that sometimes it’s not all about the beans, but also about the general perception of taste in the environment we are in.

Done a **lot** of freezing. Originally with vacuum sealing and now with tubes because I got the guilts about the summers being too hot in Spain because the pouches couldn't be recycled. (Insider joke: got verbally accosted by a Spanish lass for ordering two small parts, 3 days apart, from her company. She kindly explained that it was people like me who caused her discomfort over her summer.) Agree that of beans are in a constant state of change and post-roast that means deterioration. Freezing slows that process down of course. I've keep beans frozen for up to 3 months and they have been 100% ok. On the subject of vacuum sealing @"DavecUK"#1 is enlightened in terms of the pressure to use. I made the mistake of using a machine that was too powerful. To test vacuum sealing I roasted and rested a batch of beans and then vacuum sealed half of them and left the other versus beans stored in a regular bean bag with a one way valve I was shocked to discover that the vacuum sealed (non frozen) bears deteriorated significantly faster than the bagged beans, as measured by pour volume / time pouring.

> @"tompoland"#p36143 On the subject of vacuum sealing [@DavecUK](https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/u/DavecUK) is enlightened in terms of the pressure to use. I made the mistake of using a machine that was too powerful. Interesting. My Anova Precision vacuum sealer is minus 0.5 BAR, with an extraction rate of 4 litres per minute. As of late, I have been concerned that I was not removing enough air, so I have been using the automatic vacuum and seal function, which runs fairly long and sucks out just about all of the air. Prior to that I had been concerned about over vacuuming and had been using the manual pulse function, to remove air to a visually intermediate point. Given the above specs, @"tompoland"#p36143 @"DavecUK"#1 does my machine have the right power? Should I shorten/reduce the amount of air extraction? What’s the right approach? > @"tompoland"#p36143 now with tubes Hmmm. So now you just use tubes. Is the absence of a vacuum seal a concern? Just curious about the design of the tubes: glass or plastic? diameter and height; screw on or rubber or cork stopper?; how airtight, to keep out freezer food smells?; how many grams do they hold and are the tubes quite full (no air gap) when filled?. I’ve placed a couple of tube orders from and returns to Amazon, because the design was not right. If I go the tube route, I’d like them to fill to 18g (ideally quite full, with stopper room only) and be well sealed (airtight) to keep out freezer food odors. Ideally with a flat bottom. Preferably glass. Preferably reasonable cost.

I have gone from Freezing to Vac to the following : **Less frequently used coffee** - opened decaf and my daughter’s Freeze in a glass bottle **Bigger bags** - Vac and store in a dark cupboard in the garage **Smaller ones** - No Vac, but store in a dark cupboard in the garage. I see a little value in opening them. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/hCwiNbq.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/hCwiNbq.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

@"JHCCoffee"#p36148 https://a.aliexpress.com/_mqpxUqK These are they. Fits 18g almost perfectly. Works a charm.

> @"tompoland"#p36143 Originally with vacuum sealing and now with tubes because I got the guilts about the summers being too hot in Spain because the pouches couldn’t be recycled. (Insider joke: got verbally accosted by a Spanish lass for ordering two small parts, 3 days apart, from her company. She kindly explained that it was people like me who caused her discomfort over her summer.) Not adding any value to the vacuum discussion, but a few days ago I replaced a ceiling light in my house. I tried to ask the people at my local home center if the light I was wanted would attach to a junction box, because the instructions I could find for it were not clear on that point. There was just a picture illustrating using two screws to attach a mounting bracket into an unidentified device in the ceiling. I was told to just take it home and try it, and if it didn’t work, drive back and return it. ‘Merica. 😄 As it turned out, I had to drive back anyway to get longer screws. So Murphy’s law struck here as well.

How quickly do vacuum sealed and frozen coffee beans deteriorate?

InfamousTuba

@JHCCoffee I use the same size centrifuge tubes as tom, which are also used by ona coffee and sub-zero coffee, I managed to find some self standing ones, although if there are lots of tubes in a freezer it would be easier to have a rack to store them in anyway. Another option would be something like the resin weber bean cellars, i know johnathan gagne uses them but they are much more expensive and I don’t know how much better they would perform

tompoland

InfamousTuba

The Ali express 50ml ones come with this rack (link above to the product.)

JHCCoffee

tompoland On the subject of vacuum sealing @DavecUK is enlightened in terms of the pressure to use. I made the mistake of using a machine that was too powerful.

I’d very much appreciate further information on this topic if you or @DavecUK have a moment. What negative pressure is too much (or too little)?

My Anova Precision vacuum sealer is minus 0.5 BAR, with an extraction rate of 4 litres per minute. As of late, I have been concerned that I was not removing enough air, so I have been using the automatic vacuum and seal function, which runs fairly long and sucks out just about all of the air. Has this adversely impacted my beans?

MediumRoastSteam

JHCCoffee - no idea about positive or negative pressure or your specific machine. I think the idea is that you don’t squeeze the living day light of the air inside the bag. You just extract enough. You should not “brick” the beans. Essentially, you could just remove all the air by hand and seal it off. There’s no need for a machine to suck the air as such, just to seal it.

I have one of those standards el cheapo vacuum sealers. I set it to the “moist” setting so it doesn’t extract and compresses as much as the “dry” setting.

YMMV. Hope this helps.

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/492-vacuum-packing-beans/3

https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/910-does-vacuum-sealing-accelerate-coffee-beans-decline

(Covered to some extensive degree on the threads above)

Systemic

FWIIW I’ve just opened a bag of Kenyan beans that were roasted 4th November. They were vac sealed after degassing. Wasn’t expecting much but quite the opposite. Coffee was excellent.

prezes

I rummaged through the depth of the coffee drawer in the freezer and found vac packed smith street Las Piedras roasted on 3.8.22

Tasted very good and matched my previous taste notes. Didn’t seem to need tighter grind etc.

Inspector

prezes Did you grind beans frozen?

JHCCoffee

Inspector Did you grind beans frozen?

This gets into another closely related topic, as the vacuum packing, freezing and grinding from frozen vs grinding from unfrozen decisions are all intertwined.

If the intent is to grind from frozen, then freezing in dose size portions is (IMHO) the way to go, as opening and closing a larger bag of frozen beans introduces moist air, which condenses on the beans; not a good thing.

So, at the risk of straying from the topic of this thread, who in this Forum grinds from frozen vs grinds from unfrozen, and has you done any taste testing on this? @tompoland I think you may have.

I can open a separate thread on this, if people prefer. I searched for prior threads on this topic and couldn’t find one.

prezes

Inspector no I normally move them to a vacuum container to defrost overnight or for few hours.

I have ground from frozen on few occasions - when fancied a decaf last minute and I store it in the freezer as rarely reach for one

JHCCoffee

I created a new thread for this topic, if anyone is interested: To Grind From Frozen or To Not Grind From Frozen? …

Hope that this is not a repeat thread. I searched but couldn’t find one.

MediumRoastSteam

prezes - same here. I find that grinding from frozen gives a different profile to the shot. For me, it starts quickly and slows right down half way through. Also don’t forget if you do that, moisture will be attracted to them straight away.

So, what I do, when I freeze, is to let them defrost inside the vacuum sealed bag they were stored, so moisture (condensation) forms on the bag rather than on the beans.

prezes

MediumRoastSteam that’s a good idea actually with keeping it in the bag to defrost! Will try it from now on.

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