I've not got my machine yet (Minima), but will be getting it as early in 2022 as I can. My plan is to use Lockhills for the time being. I can't get into RO at the moment for a while host of reasons, but might do down the line (years, not months). Is Lockhills still considered okay for espresso machines (I know it isn't perfect)? It is a lot easier for me to get than Ashbeck. I also can't seem to find anything on how to descale a machine. I know the best advice is to avoid needing to, but I'm going to have to for a while. Is there a recommended approach/ process to follow? Cheers

It's probably the best bottled water. You'll need to descale the service boiler though, a fairly simple task however you do it (removing fixture or just filling with the pump).

Thank you for the quick reply @"Rob1"#171 , that's great. I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I'll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared.

> @"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 I like the idea of filling the service boiler directly and so not having the descalling stuff running around the whole machine. I’ll give it some more thought whilst I am getting prepared. As long as you **don't engage the brew switch** until descaling is completely finished and the steam boiler refreshed with water a few times to remove all descaler, n**o descaler should enter the brew boiler…** It's easier than removing fittings…just takes a bit longer.

Thanks @"DavecUK"#p2204 Just so I am clear - do you mean you'd switch the brew and steam boilers on (leaving the brew switch well alone) put the descaler in the water tank, run the HW tap to then pull the descaler into the steam boiler, let it do it's thing, then flush with lots of clean water (through the HW tap) before brewing again.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2209 Yes, exactly

Got to admit I have only ever used Ashbeck, but still descale on a regular basis just as a matter of course. However, I would be interested to hear from other members here what they consider the best water (bottled) to be as far as keeping the scale issue to a minimum…Oh, and of course for taste.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2194 Should say really Lockhills will scale in the brew boiler too very slightly. Ideally, you could mix it with something to decrease alkalinity and hardness a bit more e.g. dow to 40mg/l alkalinity using something like a zero water jug, then it wouldn't scale the brew boiler. It's still the best IMO as I wouldn't use ashbeck. You'll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too.

Thanks @"Rob1"#p2289 When you say > @"Rob1"#p2289 You’ll avoid scale in the brew boiler as is with that one but it has low alkalinity (not great for taste). Adding potassium bicarb to ashbeck is an option too. "As is with that one" - what do you mean? It sounds like you might be saying if I use Ashbeck and add potassium bicarb I'd avoid brew boiler scale and deal with the taste issue. But I am not sure that's what you mean.

@"PortafilterProcrastinator"#p2294 I mean 'as is' as in without adding anything to it but alkalinity is really low so you can get around it by adding potassium bicarb to avoid increasing sodium.

@"Rob1"#171, what dose of Potassium Bicarbonate would you add to a 5 litre bottle of Ashbeck ?

Bottled Water and Descalling Espresso Machine

dutchy101

Hmmmm. OK need to think about this carefully in that case.

Might be a case of bittled water with bicarb until the Skuma comes

MWJB

Waitforme Ashbeck is about 20mg/l alkalinity, you want 40-50mg/l. Let’s call it 45mg/l for arguments sake.

Sodium bicarbonate added to water gives a result of about 60% as alkalinity.

So divide 25 (20mg/l you already have, plus what you need to hit 45mg/l) by 60 and you get 40mg/l of sodium bicarbonate, multiply this by 5l and you add 200mg to 5l of Ashbeck. Use 0.01g scales to measure this out.

dutchy101

MWJB

This is exactly what I needed to know. Thanks

LMSC

Without hijacking the thread, you may also want to look at Rob’s excel

MWJB Could you post your carefully researched and updated excel here as well please? You may also consider linking it to your signature!

Waitforme

MWJB Waitforme Ashbeck is about 20mg/l alkalinity, you want 40-50mg/l. Let’s call it 45mg/l for arguments sake.

Sodium bicarbonate added to water gives a result of about 60% as alkalinity.

So divide 25 (20mg/l you already have, plus what you need to hit 45mg/l) by 60 and you get 40mg/l of sodium bicarbonate, multiply this by 5l and you add 200mg to 5l of Ashbeck. Use 0.01g scales to measure this out.

Topped up the machine this morning with Ashbeck + 0.2gm added to the Ashbeck 5l container.

I was amazed at how little 0.2gm actually is, I was thinking it’d be about a teaspoonful at least 😲

dutchy101

Thanks @Rob1 - I’ll take another look. Trying to run before I can walk there I think lol.

Minima coming on Tuesday - if I’ve not got my head around this by then I’ll do this, or try mixing some tap water with pure water to get to the right level.

MWJB Ashbeck is about 20mg/l alkalinity, you want 40-50mg/l. Let’s call it 45mg/l for arguments sake.

Sodium bicarbonate added to water gives a result of about 60% as alkalinity.

So divide 25 (20mg/l you already have, plus what you need to hit 45mg/l) by 60 and you get 40mg/l of sodium bicarbonate, multiply this by 5l and you add 200mg to 5l of Ashbeck. Use 0.01g scales to measure this out.

Waitforme

Thanks @MWJB .

I’ll give this a go, I wonder if I’ll taste any difference 🤔

MWJB

LMSC There isn’t really much need for a spreadsheet when discussing bottled water for boilers. Use Waitrose Essentials Lockhills. If you can’t find it/it’s too inconvenient to source, use Volvic.

dutchy101

Just seen Lakeland are doing this Zero Water Filter for a pretty decent price. If I’ve understood correctly using this with Waitrose Lockhills water should be fine as water for a Minima without the need to add anything else (whilst I wait for my Skuma RO unit)?

https://www.lakeland.co.uk/26312/ZeroWater-5-Stage-Water-Filter-Jug-with-Free-TDS-Meter-2.8L?src=gfeed&gclid=CjwKCAiAz--OBhBIEiwAG1rIOpP4iA1ah4gNAjOUDw9RMhiqdALO6jlyCQ8mBKOtJOUAZ1dqpAFeJBoC3kkQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Rob1

yes

dutchy101

Legend - thanks mate. That makes life very easy

MWJB

I wouldn’t use a Zero jug & Lockhills. It makes more sense to use the Zero jug with harder water, like your tap water, then mx to get around 50mg/l alkalinity.

LMSC

MWJB It makes more sense to use the Zero jug with harder water, like your tap water, then mx to get around 50mg/l alkalinity.

That would also put up the hardness potentially causing scales on the Minima, is it not? Of course, the proportion is important.

Another thing, how consistently, the zero jug can really stay zero. I don’t know, but, I am not sure it can stay that way thru the life cycle of the filter.

😊

Rob1

^^ or that.

dutchy101

Do people generally use strips for testing their water or are there digital readers that anyone could recommend?

DavecUK

dutchy101 Do people generally use strips for testing their water or are there digital readers that anyone could recommend?

I believe Rob likes to look at a strip! 🤔

LMSC

dutchy101 drop kit!

MWJB

dutchy101 there are no test strips, nor digital readers for alkalinity that a worth investigating. You need a KH/alkalinity drop kit, or a water authority report.

MWJB

LMSC No, this is what I have been doing on/off for a while. If you want to aim 40mg/l rather than 50, that’s fine. Zero jug comes with a cheap TDS meter and you are advised to change filters when the meter detects 6ppm…used to take me 3-4 months at about a litre per day (you are supposed to change filters every 2 months for jug filters generally).

Zerowater is literally that, 0ppm TDS (or <6ppm at worst). You wouldn’t put that in a boiler.

dutchy101

According to my water company, my water has 116 mg/l of calcium and total hardness of 290 mg/l.

I will receive a TDS testing reader with the Zero jug. I currently use a britta water filter in my fridge for drinking water.

Would there be any reason not to run my tap water through the Britta and then through the Zero?

MWJB

dutchy101 Your hardness is 290ppm as CaCO3 because that is 116*2.5 (that is the factor that converts calcium hardness as ion to CaCO3). Evidently you have no magnesium in your water.

There is no point Brita filtering your tap water prior to putting it in the Zero jug. Buy a bigger Zero jug that you think you need, because it is slow to filter.

LMSC

MWJB Have also been testing them on the boilers ? Thx

coffeealex

MWJB I can see you are very well informed re water quality and certainly a lot more than I am. Could I ask your opinion on using osmio zero with their cartridge supplied fitted. I appreciate it introduces some calcium carbonate (I believe) but apparently such a small amount that the water is still considered soft. Would this be ok to use or is any level of calcium or magnesium a big no no to espresso machines.

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