Well, how about that! Niche just released an 83 mm flat burr grinder. Love my conical, but very interesting. They are using two burr sets: one for espresso and one for drip.

I backed the Timemore grinder. The Niche duo is twice the price but perhaps more likely to be reliable. I’m conflicted now…

Comes with two sets of burrs as standard, that's pretty good.

Anybody noted that the photo of the burrs show different rotation?

Hmmm all very interested and then its April 1st - bit as you can order it…. It does say its not shipping to July 2023. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/oRn6FKK.png][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/oRn6FKK.png[/IMG][/URL]

On the one hand this doesn’t seem weird enough to be an April Fool’s. A Niche with a massive hopper or something would’ve been more of a joke. On the other, for a machine known for it’s great workflow, it seems slightly weird to have to change burrs to switch coffee types as if anyone would actually just casually switch burrs multiple times a day.

Tbh the ‘sold with two burrs’ is the only thing that makes me question this.

> @"Ernie1"#p40980 slightly weird to have to change burrs to switch coffee types as if anyone would actually just casually switch burrs multiple times a day. You don’t need to. But if you want to grind correctly for filter (as in, be more optimised for that method, extract better flavours etc) you are better off with the more appropriate burr set.

@"Igm45"#p40981 Didn’t someone reference a patent entry in this forum a couple of weeks back which alluded to that very design? Edit: https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/47/93/9b/b7dc1dd206b3c3/WO2023274895A1.pdf

Niche flat burr released

DenisS

Seems like people are not understanding how this works. You get a dedicated no retention grinder for espresso or brewing, with the ability to change burr fast w/o loosing alignment. This is the idea behind this grinder.

Df83 can’t do that, also, there is no bellowing, or rdt.

DavecUK

DenisS Seems like people are not understanding how this works. You get a dedicated no retention grinder for espresso or brewing, with the ability to change burr fast w/o loosing alignment. This is the idea behind this grinder.

Df83 can’t do that, also, there is no bellowing, or rdt.

Absolutely correct.

Ernie1 I wonder if the espresso one will do adequate brew. I’m not doing to switch the burr set twice a day so it would be a deal breaker… although I know there isn’t currently a flat burr grinder out that does do both well interchangeably.

Yes the espresso burrs will give the same filter performance as any other 83mm Mazzer burr grinder when grinding for filter. However, the dedicated filter burr set produces way better filter and aeropress than espresso burrs trying to do the same grind size. It’s a difference that can be blind tasted and not just by experts. A non expert selected the filter burr as better 9 times out of 10.

So you’re not loosing anything, with everything to gain if you decide to take 60s or less to swap the burrs over. I am hoping that there are independent blind taste tests done of this. it might once and for all change the belief that one burr set can do it equally well.

The filter specific burr set cannot grind for espresso

Ernie1

DenisS Seems like people are not understanding how this works.

To be fair it is a different proposition to the Zero, which is advertised as a one-for-all grinder so understandable people would be slightly confused by the provision of two burr sets.

I appreciate there doesn’t seem to be a lot of pourover/filter drinkers on this forum and even fewer who do both every day, but the two-burr sets changes the proposition quite a bit.

I asked if it can do both as I’m not fussed about zero retention since I grind on-demand. I’m not going to buy an £800 brew grinder, and if it’s espresso only, I’d go for a used Mythos or similar.

I’m not the target market but I’d still be keen if it could do both.

tompoland

DenisS Df83 can’t do that, also, there is no bellowing, or rdt.

Add to that, retention is likely much lower in the Duo.

Cuprajake

As Denis says

It takes a minute to swap out the burrs

If that means you’re going to get better flavours and experiences from the £18/250g of beans you have bought, then would you not do that?

I’ve honestly not tried the espresso burrs for filter, there’s an obvious difference in them

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake - It wasn’t clear (for me at least) in your post whether you ran the Duo with SSP burrs. If you did, how was it? Is it a straight forward swap?

MediumRoastSteam

wilburpan I looked into this, and answered that this information doesn’t seem to be available of the Niche,

Nothing to apologise for! All good.

For me, I was happy to understand that a DC motor runs very differently from an AC motor, in the sense that it draws what it needs to draw, as explained by Dave. So for me at least, that was the answer to the question.

And I did read your post and that the information is not readily available for the Niche. :-)

DavecUK

Cuprajake The burrs come on their own carriers, they are designed not to be swapped out for other burrs, they are designed for mazzer burrs only

Everything in this is correct, although it should be pointed out that other burrs may fit…but the carriers are made to be a perfect fit with the Mazzer burr sets used. It might be that other burrs fit perfectly, or they might need shimming (with proper shim washers) if they are not quite thick enough. To try and help here’s some technical data on mazzer burr max and minimums…this is because the burrs are cut on around 4 different machines and I can tell which ones. Measurements are from rim to face.

Espresso burrs max thickness 9.592 mm
Espresso burrs min thickness 9.443 mm

A difference of 149 microns depending on which grinding machine is used. Tolerance within burrs made on a specific grinding machine is around 3 micron..

Difference between the thickest and thinnest espresso burrs is across all grinding machines is 0.149 micron. A human hair is about 70 micron.

Filter burrs max thickness 9.561 mm
Filter burrs min thickness 9.556 mm

A difference of 5 microns as at the time only 1 machine was grinding filter burrs. Tolerance within burrs made on a specific grinding machine is around 5 micron..

An object of 5 micron is not visible to the human eye….it’s around the thickness of a single human blood cell.

As long as the burrs you use are thicker than the minimum sizes, they might be OK, if they are thinner, you would probably not want to shim higher than 100 or 200 micron, for technical reasons.

The other critical things to mention is the burrs are pretty much an exact fit in the carriers radially and centrally….so the diameter and central hole of any alternative burrs must match almost exactly, the Mazzer 83mm burr sets used. from memory 151B and 151F.

Another critical point - These were specifically chosen to give the performance required at a particularly low burr speed (which massively improves grind quality) and it’s unlikely SSPs will perform better, in other tests which I can’t go into SSP equivalents consistently performed worse, size for size…

P.S. The carriers are machined to extremely high tolerances!

P.P.S. The test units UK and USA were pre-production and the grinder has been significantly improved since then. test grinders were selected to be average to below average in performance, not cherry picked to be the best ones..In fact the best were selected out.

LMSC

DavecUK the Mazzer 83mm burr sets used. from memory 151B and 151F.

I think they are espresso (151B) and filter burrs (151F) in that order; I reckon they are Mazzer ZM burrs set.

tompoland

DavecUK super interesting thanks Dave.

This issue of burr height and the need for shims: is there a reason that burr swapping may be an issue for the Duo as opposed to other grinders like the DF83? Just pondering whether I keep the latter and grab use the Duo for burr swapping. Or maybe I’m better to hang on to the DF83 for burr swaps.

Thanks for your insights.

MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK The filter specific burr set cannot grind for espresso

Are they also Mazzer, Dave?

Ernie1

DavecUK Yes the espresso burrs will give the same filter performance as any other 83mm Mazzer burr grinder when grinding for filter.

Thanks! This is what I wanted to hear.

So to clarify, because I’m literally hovering over the buy button… I can expect to be able to make a couple of pourovers in the morning, and a few espressos throughout the day, just by changing the settings appropriately?

With the added option to switch the burrs if I did want to enhance the pourovers at any point.

LMSC

DavecUK IIRC, they advise cleaning the retained coffee, while burrs swapping between filter and espresso.

If one were to swap these daily, we are looking at about 1.4g of wastage a day or about 500g wastage a year. I think this wastage can be avoided / minimised as I am not convinced leaving the retained coffee (0.7g) will make a noticeable difference in the cup. This is for some one like me who would make both espresso and filter daily. The only difference might be a little more fines getting in to V60. That’s a nice trade off, I think.

Any thoughts from experience.

MWJB

tompoland can you recall how long ago those tests were run? from memory it’s quite some years ago and would predate recent developments such as Caedo’s Opal Glide or the SSP range. Perhaps its more up to date than I recall?

Do you have any tangible reason to think that the grinders you mention do anything statistically different (given Schulman’s protocol) than the grinders tested then?

tompoland

MWJB depends on your answer to my question, which I didnt see in your response. In absence of knowing the year of testing, I’ll take a guess that it was more than 10 years ago in which case there are a multitude of new burr sets since that test was conducted. That would qualify as tangible.

MWJB

tompoland simply because the differences in terms of in-the-cup is typically more marked between flats and conicals than it is between say one flat at 83mm and another flat at 83mm. More of a level playing field, if you like.

It seems you know the results of testing before you do the testing, which seems to make testing moot :-)

tompoland

MWJB I’ve done a lot of comparisons and after a few hundred pours I have some general impressions. Always exceptions of course.

But I’m still exploring. 14 different burr sets on the way.

Probably should get this thread back to the Duo.

Cuprajake

The calibration zero point is fixed at factory (it can be adjusted but it’s not needed )

Petre

Cuprajake if I would have bought your major now I would have been like this

DavecUK

LMSC It’s so little, I don’t think it’s critical either way in the grand scheme of things.

tompoland

LMSC buy two 😀

Petre

In a different note: does it take SSP?

Cuprajake

It’s not advised as above

Jony

Noooooo😂

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