MediumRoastSteam This is very interesting. And I am also very aware of the extensive amount of work you put when testing the Duo.
- Essentially you are saying (correct me please if I am wrong) that for a given set of burrs, there’s an optimal speed for the motor to run in order to get optimal results, right?
- And maybe manufacturers use variable speed as a feature to allow users to figure that out themselves, but that in itself could have detrimental effects related to the type of motor, lower speeds and torque.
My question really is… there’s a trend in general to fit better aftermarket burrs (e.g.: SSP multi purpose, unimodal, and whatever other nonsense) to grinders which are single speed, like the df64/83, Mazzer, Eureka, etc, etc. Even Jake had a Mazzer with SSP burrs.
- Does that mean that fitting aftermarket burrs will most likely not get optimal results for those grinders? Also, in certain cases, e.g.: distributors of the df64/83 offer to fit aftermarket burrs to the grinder, which implies they are not optimal for the speed the grinder runs providing the grinder (df64/83) was originally designed to run optimally with the burrs fitted at the factory, which I hardly think that’s true as they seem to come with different burrs depending on the distributor.
- So, for the Niche at least, it’s best to stick with what it was designed for.
I’ve numbered things to make answer clearer, as there quite a few questions/statements there. Now I’m masking generalisations, because someone can always say ah but this grinder does etc.. So In general
There is an optimal speed range for any given set of burrs. However this is doesn’t apply or translate across to other grinders unless certain other parts of the design exist (which I won’t go into). The Burrs don’t work in isolation
Manufacturers use variable speed as a marketing feature to differentiate their grinders from others, making them stand out compared to those who don’t. In reality, the variable speed isn’t that useful without other aspects of design. Logically the manufacturers would be giving lots of advice about which speeds to run for what coffees, types of burrs etc.. they don’t. In fact some manufacturers I spoke to don’t even believe a slow speed is important, which is crazy.
When variable speed is used, you often don’t hear what really happens. My understanding is some grinders take for ever to grind the beans as the speeds are reduced, mostly once you get below 500. This in itself isn’t great, as the bounce around the crush zone getting “nibbled” for extended periods of time. Others can’t go below certain speeds e.g. 800 rpm or so. And “usually” reducing speed reduces torque, so some grinders are running as beans are added, or they stall. I’m not aware of extensive testing of variable speed and the results. I am aware of my own results when assessing the right speeds to run at, which I spent months doing.
- How long is a piece of string, what aftermarket burrs will exist in the future. The only answer I can give that for the 83mm size aftermarket burrs that will fit (most likely ones that fit Mazzer grinders as well and the like), they should/might work better than when spun at 1350 rpm. The tech in the niche allowing them to perform at the lower RPM. BUT, I can’t speak for clearance and grind times, as I have not personally tested with lots of burr sets and I would not want to endorse any alternative burrs as great.
The distributors of the DF64/63, will fit anything you ask them to if it sells a grinder. If they can’t get burrs from Italy they will use Chinese ones and terms like (DLC) to wow people…which is just a hard shell over a softer stainless core. The benefits of DLC in prosumer use are pretty much zero. It’s good marketing though when you supply a Chinese burr.
As for testing, I’m not sure if that’s the only quantity source of burrs available to them (SSP don’t make in large quantities), they are not going to say..“Oh, these are are not very good, we will wait and see if Italmill will agree to supply us are they”, especially as I don’t think Italmill like supplying to the Chinese market for obvious reasons. I base this on some conversations I have had about this issue over the years.
- I don’t know, the answer to that. It might be, certainly all the testing was done around those particular burr sets. Perhaps some burrs might be even better, perhaps not. Or there may be no difference.
So I’ve tried to answer the points as best I can and would make my own point…many questions like this should be asked of other grinders and that’s not happening. If I take an example from a recently marketed grinder; All I see is influencers telling us how good they are for espresso, or will be, when they don’t have the burrs. Showing us a grinder that actually isn’t the one being sold. Make lip smacking yum yum sounds at what? All for a product that isn’t even available for testing….it’s still on Kickstarter.
Perhaps things like why does x grinder:
- have to be running when I add beans
- how does it get on grinding green coffee from a standing start
- how does it get on grinding green beans from a running start
- lets see it grind from start to finish and then make a bottomless shot, all completely unedited
- take it apart after a few days of grinding, what’s really in there, remove both sets of burrs
- lets see the real workflow and dose consistency (the P100 can be from 0.2g to 3g and the knocker to clear the chute has to be used 4 times to be sure…otherwise you might get 3g
- How does it get on without RDT
- can you get top and bottom burrs out to clean thoroughly
- how much power is it consuming when I grind (e.g. will it work on a coffee cart)
- is it voltage sensitive
- is there a power brick
- When you glibly say and you can put aftermarket supper wazzy special burrs in it…have you done that and tried them, lets see some shots with those burrs in.
I am not sure what influencers actually do, or what testing they really do, but releasing a few videos a week, might impact how much they can do. especially as there’s always a new product to promote, clicks and views to be had, Patreon demands to satisfy (as they are paying). That burning need to stay relevant, because it’s their job. I’m in no way against influencers…but people should treat them like a car salesman, showing them all the features of the car. If salesman A works for BMW, he extols the virtues of his product range over all else. If next week salesman A moves to Mercedes…guess what, he extols the virtues of Mercedes, if a month later he is working for Nissan……You get the idea. Influencers (in general) are the QVC/shopping channel of the coffee world and there’s nothing wrong with that.
Me, I barely get the time to do videos I want to….being more interested in working at the back end of stuff…like with the ECM Mechanika Max (or the Lelit range etc..). That’s where the hobby really interests me.