First post, a bit of help if you all can please. Is a dual boiler required and worth the extra cost over a heat exchanger? I'm mad for an espresso with the odd milky drink in between, would the advice be to go HX (cheaper, easier to service, easier to maintain) vs DB (dearer etc). Profitec p500/lelit mara x/ecm mechanika slim vs profitec p600/lelit Bianca for example. I'm fed up of reading, about to commit to a purchase but it's often a case of the more I read the more I change my mind!

@"AndyG1987"#p2423 - I would not consider any HX machine apart from the MaraX, unless you fancy the cooling flush dance. If you can, I’d go for the best you can afford, don’t forget to budget for grinder. You said Bianca… that’s what I’d go for.

@"AndyG1987"#p2423 Since you are not a regular (but an occasional) milk steamer, I believe, you are ok with an HX. However, a lot of us do not steam milk for every cup. Some do not unless they need to for guests. I steam 3 times a week. If you do not mind the extra cost, I would suggest a DB. You know it’s there, just in case ….You never know…. Hope it makes sense. Bianca will be a cracking machine, unless you would like to consider Vesuvius, whose price isn’t significantly different. I have a DB Evo. I’m sure other experienced folks will chip in.

These videos may help, the first one is how the MaraX works with the control logic and extra thermostat in the HX tube. It should still give you an overview of HX design for machines that don't have the cleverness of MaraX. Normal HX machines need flushing down to temperature, which can use an extra 100-300ml per shot depending on the machine and how well the manufacturer has designed it. Steaming on standard HX machines is always a compromise between too hot brew temps and steam power. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=684MgpNVLl0 The second video is how a dual boiler works (it's done against a thermoblock system, but still gives you the advantages of a dedicated PID controlled brew boiler. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCTmU777ORI The last link is to a review of the Lelit Mara (not the X) which is a standard HX model, not maide any more. The review probably goes into some of the standard HX stuff. Mara was not a powerful steamer, because of the need to keep boiler temperature down to prevent impacting brew temps. https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

HX vs Dual Boiler

AndyG1987

I’m not sure if the cooling flush dance would be a problem.

I’m yet to play with temps/settings when making espresso, but dont really want to have to upgrade anytime soon.

The two DBs I listed are currently out of reach of my budget though!

I’ve read Dave’s reviews of the Lelits, and was once set on the Mara X but got drawn in to the looks of the ECM.

It’s a minefield!

LMSC

AndyG1987 Liz ?

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC For an occasional milk steaming, I believe, you are ok with an HX.

I don’t understand this statement. Surely and HX machine is good for everyday steaming, as, whether you like it or not, there will always be steaming available?

DavecUK

These videos may help, the first one is how the MaraX works with the control logic and extra thermostat in the HX tube. It should still give you an overview of HX design for machines that don’t have the cleverness of MaraX. Normal HX machines need flushing down to temperature, which can use an extra 100-300ml per shot depending on the machine and how well the manufacturer has designed it. Steaming on standard HX machines is always a compromise between too hot brew temps and steam power.

The second video is how a dual boiler works (it’s done against a thermoblock system, but still gives you the advantages of a dedicated PID controlled brew boiler.

The last link is to a review of the Lelit Mara (not the X) which is a standard HX model, not maide any more. The review probably goes into some of the standard HX stuff. Mara was not a powerful steamer, because of the need to keep boiler temperature down to prevent impacting brew temps.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

HVL87

@AndyG1987 what is your max budget?

What is your preferred roast level?

A traditional HX machine would be good if you were steaming regularly and preferred milk based drinks, which isn’t the case. The cooling flushes are quite wasteful as highlighted already.

Maybe the MaraX is a good compromise as you will get temperature stability for espresso, with steaming on hand if and when needed. Personally I’m not a fan of the MaraX and would jump to the Elizabeth DB.

The ACS Minima is worth considering if you want a low maintenance E61.

All depends on your budget..

AndyG1987

The Elizabeth was once on the list, it’s back in again now.

Kind of got sucked into looks over function which doesn’t help.

Budget, £1500 limit.

LMSC

AndyG1987 What about the grinder ? What do you have please ? You may also need accessories. Do you live in a hard water area? You must sort your water before purchasing an espresso machine.

HVL87

I can understand going for something you like the look of. Personally I wouldn’t buy a machine if I didn’t like the look of it - you might regret it afterwards. Unfortunately this usually means you have to increase your budget to get form and function.

Cuprajake

£300 more buys a bianca, will save you £50 on a tamper and anther £40 on ims baskets oh and a drying cloth as there in the box 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️ just saying 😈

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake will save you £50 on a tamper and anther £40 on ims baskets oh and a drying cloth as there in the box

My understanding is that the same good tamper and good quality baskets also come with the MaraX. I think even the Elizabeth is shipping with IMS baskets these days, but no tamper.

HVL87

I agree with Jake..if you can stretch and considering accessories are included

AndyG1987

I could really not do with blowing the budget although its difficult not to.

Grinder Niche Zero.

@MediumRoastSteam I see your current set up is the Elizabeth with Niche, how do you find that? Any desire to upgrade your current set up?

MediumRoastSteam

AndyG1987 - yes, of course. Without upgraditis , what’s the point of forums? 🤣😂👍

Jokes aside, as much as I don’t want to upgrade, I do feel I want to experiment with a flat burr grinder and flow or pressure profiling.

but at the same time, I’m happy with what I’ve got, and get excellent coffee from it - a lot better than a Gaggia Classic / Eureka Mignon combo!

LMSC

AndyG1987 You have a very good grinder; the machine will be sorted soon (Liz, Minima, Bianca, Vesuvius or what ever you can afford / stretch).

I’m sure you are aware. But, you never told us anything about the water. So, we ask again. What’s your story with the water ? Please address this crucial part before purchasing the espresso machine.

Lake_M

If it were me and I absolutely couldn’t stretch to a Bianca, then it would be the Liz for sure. Temperature stability (PID), 58mm group, steaming and water, quiet pump, control over pre-infusion. Yeah it’s not a shiny E61 but hey-ho.

pete10uk

LMSC

Can you elaborate on the water? I see a lot of people fascinate about water, I’m from good old Yorkshire and here we have really soft water and don’t suffer limescale. Is it just a limescale thing?

Lake_M

pete10uk

Mainly scaling but also taste of the coffee is affected.

AndyG1987

@LMSC Its a soft water area I live in, currently using tap water and the filter on a sage barista.
Any recommendations?

Cuprajake

If i were buying a hx machine id go for the marax but then an extar £300 gets the dual boiler in the Elizabeth.

There are other machines such as the bezzera but there up there in price if you want dual boiler

The best bang for buck is the Bianca, what you get for the money it punches well above its price.

The profitec 700 is another good machine but again up there.

Water wise alot of us make ro or distilled water then add the minerals we need. This way theres never a chance of the insides scaling, and when even the most expensive option of water is the osmio zero, compared to ripping a £1800 machine to bits its a no brainer,

MediumRoastSteam

Cuprajake The profitec 700 is another good machine

Put the Bianca and the Pro-700 in front of me and I’ll choose the Bianca any day.

LMSC

Scaling, corrosion besides fluoride and a lot of rubbish in the tap water, which we don’t want to consume.

Please read these threads, if you haven’t.

Please get a drop kit. Measure your general hardness (GH) and KH (alkalinity) on 20 ml of water each, multiply by 17.9 mg/l, divide by 4 to get your standardised reading for 5 ml. You can use @Rob1’s excel and plug-in those values in the excel.

EDIT

Jake has already detailed why we need to treat the water! I have an Evo; she gets the water from Osmio zero; some times, I add some bicarbonate to the water before filling the tank.