I’m looking for some help to make sure im not missing something in my thought process for upgrading. I’m currently using a Sage Barista Express, have been for 2 years now. Whilst I’m getting good results it’s very inconsistent. With zero changes from shot to shot they can act wildly different. So, it’s time to upgrade. I make around 4 drinks a day. Mostly flat whites and the odd americano. Occasionally I’ll make more when people come over and it would be nice in that situation to spend less time stood in front of the machine. My initial thoughts were to get a Lelit Elizabeth and a Niche. Then, Niche announced the Duo so I stalled on my grinder purchase. And then I saw the Timemore 078s and I decided to back that (I might still pull out if I can be persuaded otherwise). The Elizabeth also got the veto from my wife on looks. So, after much research I narrowed it down the the Lelit Bianca and the ECM Synchronika. With the idea that upping my budget will get me both a machine that should last me for years and have the looks to please my other half. I’m edging towards the Bianca due to size and the space it will sit in my kitchen. I think the ECM would block access to the nook that the grinder will live. I’m also strongly considering the extra cash to get a white or black one purely for aesthetics. And if I’m using it every day for years to come it seems worth it. My question is, is there other machines I should be considering? Maybe a little more money and go for a Libra Micra? Or do I even look at HX machines for my needs, would they serve it? Lastly, does anyone have the white or black Bianca and is happy they chose that over the shiny one? Thanks for the help! I feel very fortunate to be considering these machines and want to get it right.

> @"BrewLiam"#p43831 Lastly, does anyone have the white or black Bianca and is happy they chose that over the shiny one? I have a black Bianca and it does look good…I only wish they did it with the same colour knobs as the stainless finish…I personally think it would look even better [upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/YFTwm7F.jpeg] Here is the black and stainless side by side.

@"BrewLiam"#p43831 I know you have a space issue. There is an Evo on the classifieds for £2K. An excellent value for money. The new would likely cost £3K. https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/713-acs-vesuvius-evo-leva-for-sale-ps2000/40 Btw, welcome to our forum! 😊

@"DavecUK"#p43833 thanks for the side-by-side comparison Dave, not sure I’ve seen them both like that before. Sold on the colour finish vs the other for sure

@"LMSC"#p43835 thanks LMSC, I’ve been a member over on CFUK for a while, came back to it recently to find it nowhere near as active. Stumbled upon this forum recently and glad I found it :). I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did not 😂

There's nearly £600 more in price for a black Vs chrome Bianca The Bianca is a cracking machine, it comes with everything you need to start bar a grinder. Theres the ECM and profitec 700 dual boilers The tech in the Bianca seems more sophisticated than the ECM. The duo is a great grinder, none of them will be out before July, Me I'd have another Bianca in a heart beat. While the la marzocco are nice they are very expensive and won't offer you anything the Bianca won't do.

> @"Cuprajake"#p43839 Me I’d have another Bianca in a heart beat. This is the sort of thing that’s good to hear. Read so much about ECM being much better build quality, which maybe they are, but nice to know people would go back to Bianca’s. The sophistication of them is the main draw for me. And £600 seems crazy for the colour, but I can’t help but prefer it. Appreciate the confirmation of what I was thinking.

They will both make excellent coffee. There will be differences in warm up times etc but at this price point you will get good coffee out of most and it start to come down to looks and little details. Like the Bianca you can move the water tank, most machines that's fixed. There's the ACS Vesuvius pressure profiler too. In this price point but left door fill

> @"BrewLiam"#p43838 I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did Might be worth a second try, it's a cracking machine….produces fabulous coffee and true 15m warmup.

> @"BrewLiam"#p43840 Read so much about ECM being much better build quality, which maybe they are, but nice to know people would go back to Bianca’s The build quality of the Bianca isn't lacking, I honestly can't see anything on mine that screams poor workmanship; the edges are flush and its panels are flat. It's definitely good enough!

> @"BrewLiam"#p43838 I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did not 😂 Keep trying until she relents. Tell her it’s a fab machine, 2/3 of the new price, makes 10+ bars shots unlike other machines, literally easy to maintain, no need to back flush, blah blah. Don’t take no for an answer. 😁 Between Bianca and Evo, I will choose Evo. If you still go Bianca, it’s a cracking machine. Where do you live?

Please could I get a sanity check on my upgrade thoughts

chlorox

DavecUK

True true…..Another example of that is flow control kits that will fit most e61 clones won’t fit the vibiemme grouphead.

Cuprajake

https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk/products/bezzera-matrix-mn-pid?variant=40408907382851

This is what I nearly got

BrewLiam

Thanks everyone, really appreciate the many responses and view points.

Where I’m at:

- ACS Evo is out based on size even if it’s a great deal

- ECM Synchronika is out based on size and feature set. Feels like paying the same price for build rather than features.

- ECM Mechanika Max. I looked at the small amount of info out there and it does look brilliant. But, I think it would have had to be £1,500 or less for me to bite.

- I toyed last night with the LMLM since they have the 25% discount. Whilst this has been a dream machine for years and the discount has come at the right time, I think I’ll regret not having more to ‘play with’. I realise I’m actually quite excited to get a bit more manual with my espresso.

- VBM Domobar super - seemed like a full featured machine at a good price. But, not sure I like the little screen and the electronic look. Same reason I’m not a fan of the Decent look.

So, it leaves me very much considering placing an order for the powder coated Bianca. Just the colour to settle on, but I’ll suss that one out myself.

As for grinders I have a question.

I’ve backed the Timemore 078s which I’m still on the fence about since no one has had an actual unit to review, just the burrs. And when you cut through the hype it seems average for espresso. I also think I may be stung with VAT which will make the whole grinder around £500 whenever I end up getting it. Which put this in Niche territory and the workflow on the Niche still looks better.

So, since I’m buying from BB and they offer package discounts, is there other grinders I should look at, especially with the potential to get £80-£100 off one?

Del_UK

BrewLiam
Love him or hate him (as some do here) Lance Hendrick just posted a ‘review’ of the 078,

I’ve had the Bianca for nearly a year now, and I love it. I really like the paddle for profiling different roasts or just tweaking shots that are running a bit quick/slow. For the money, ignoring the powder coated tax, it’s a fantastic machine and Bella Barista are a great retailer who sorted out the issue I had with my Elizabeth pretty quickly. They knock a few percent off of some grinders/machines if you buy them together. You can get the stainless Bianca and a DF83 for £2511 at the moment.

LMSC

BrewLiam So, it leaves me very much considering placing an order for the powder coated Bianca. Just the colour to settle on, but I’ll suss that one out myself.

Great choice! We will wait for your pictures.

Cuprajake

Hard to say grinder wise as most have something that can get annoying is bellows haha

Think the Bianca is very capable, the flow control can save a shot that would otherwise hit the sink

Cuprajake

Think that vid left me with more questions than answers.

I’d say he is way more brew focused than espresso, or that’s how it comes across to me.

BrewLiam

I’ve not watched all the video yet, but I’m pretty sure he’s using a 078 with 078s burrs. Which just makes me wonder when the S backers will get their grinders. The risk of Kickstarter I guess.

Whilst I do the odd brew I have a Feld Grind for that, so this would really just be an espresso grinder for me.

Cuprajake

No he said it was the s didn’t he. He’s had them for 2 months.

MattH

Cuprajake Think he bought the 078 ages ago when they were buyable in some regions then he got a 078 but with the “s” burrs. Not sure anyone has had a actually 078s out of the box (so I think they have been stepped not step less on the machine)

Not sure what I think - it’s not really helped me make a decision.

BrewLiam

MattH same. I was really hoping this review would be a finished unit.

I’m debating this, niche, df83 or just getting a df64 as a package deal at BB for a starter grinder. That one would only be about £300 technically.

Cuprajake

MattH

just re watched the start, 64, 64s, 78, 78s he says

appologies, he changes the infomation a little further on, so no one has a 78s yet

Nightrider_1uk

Cuprajake I just tried to link to black cat coffee as they sell the bezzera duo matrix but his site has closed.

The Black Coffee website is still up

https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk.

LMSC

I thought, to me, it appeared like a brew grinder review.

BrewLiam

So, I’ve spent the last couple of days looking over my grinder choices and narrowing it down.

Again, like with the espresso machine, I’d love some feedback on my thinking in case there is something I’m missing.

And please bear in mind I’m coming from the built in grinder of the SBE for espresso. So, I’m sure everything will be an upgrade.

Recap on my needs:

- Up to 6 shots a day (usually 4)

- Mainly flat whites, the odd americano and if my new set up produces better results (bloody hope so) then I could get into neat espresso

- I prefer medium to light roasts. Rarely do anything too light as I currently find them impossible on the SBE. I also find they get lost in milk (my own opinion currently)

- Space is a minor issue for the grinder, although all home grinders I’ve looked at are ok

- I prefer single dosing

- I like the things I use to be aesthetically pleasing

- I may use it for filter on occasion. But I wouldn’t be out of a grinder if it was espresso only.

- Budget no more than £600 really.

- Ideally don’t want to buy used just to save £100.

I currently have the Timemore 078s backed, but I’m not a gambling man so have my concerns (let’s not get into the reviews) that the quality might not meet my expectations and shipping could be VERY delayed, effectively delaying my whole upgrade. I’m not using the SBE grinder to grind for the Bianca in the meantime.

Here’s my thoughts so far:

- Timemore 078s (£420) - back this and looks good. But have concerns (see above)

- DF64 - good price with BB discount when buying a machine (c.£320) but it looks a bit unfinished in my opinion. Could add SSP MP burrs in my budget but also read that they are difficult to dial in espresso

- DF83 (c.£600 after BB discount) - it feels like this is hailed as the best for the budget. Looks a bit better than DF64, but a big thing. Not sure if I need to jump this far up from the SBE grinder.

- Niche (£500) - I’ve always wanted one. Very nearly bought one before. Looks are good (not great). Size is lovely and the workflow just looks brilliant. But, I’m concerned here because flat burrs are held so highly and people talk about the Niche being poor at lighter roasts.

- The Solo Compact SPTK 38 (c.£120 after BB discount) - looks great but it’s small burrs. Dubbed ‘occasional grinder’ and the power brick is a turn off. My thinking here was that it might be enough for a year whilst I wait and see how the Timemore and Niche Duo perform and I save a bit for a future grinder.

- Eureka Specialita (c.£330) - not a huge fan on the look. Not single dose. Just feel like I should consider it at my price point?

- Varia VS3 (c.£400 I think) - love the look of this grinder but in a world of ‘bigger burrs are better) the 38mm burrs concern me. Also, I think it has a power brick which ruins some of the aesthetics.

Sorry for the long post. Writing all this is probably partly to help me get it straight in my head too.

Any help or thoughts on the above would be great!

Thanks

tompoland

BrewLiam got the Varia, DF64, DF83, Niche and others.

My pick for best value, highest quality espresso would be a DF64 with Gorilla Gear burrs (or SSP Espresso HU).

The DF64 is a good grinder.

No, it’s not a precision engineered machine and yes, a couple of inexpensive aftermarket bits are helpful. But if you are OK with bellows and fitting upgraded burrs you’d be hard pressed to get a better in-the-cup result with any grinder at any price, for medium or medium/light espresso.

Bold words I know.

Also, based on comparisons so far (blind tests yet to come) the GG burrs produce espresso as tasty as the SSPs and the former is less expensive.

That said, you have to be OK with a little more faff (bellows) and if you don’t like the looks then that could be a deal breaker too.

MediumRoastSteam

You might want to save £100 on a package deal. But if he offers are not what you want, is £100 worth the while in the grand scheme of things?

You also say you are not a gambling person, but you backed up one of the grinders on kickstarter? Even if they deliver, will they be any good?

If you are into filter and espresso…. The Niche Duo will tick the boxes.

I have a Niche Zero, I drink light roasts.

Think about the investment. If you set yourself with hard budgets, is there a risk of making the wrong decision and therefore finding yourself going over budget anyway?

It’s a big investment. Best to get it right first time if you can. That’s the cheapest option.

I personally would not even consider paying an extra £400 or whatever it is for a powder coated Bianca. It just feels wrong. I’d instead use the money towards the grinder you want.

BrewLiam

MediumRoastSteam wise words.

Im guessing light roasts on the Niche are generally ok for you? How long have you had it?

MediumRoastSteam

BrewLiam I was a super early bird backer. So since June/July 2018 approx.

My tastebuds are not amazing. I think I will eventually buy a Niche Duo, or another flat burr grinder. But you can’t beat the workflow of he Niche.

But for the moment, he Zero is not going anywhere. I drink a milk coffee in the morning (I’d like to call it a flat white) and an espresso in the afternoon. I don’t drink filter coffee, or Americano - not my thing.

Cuprajake

For your use case I would say look at the df range the 64mm with a scope of later changing things up with different burr types should you wish.

Then there’s the 83 which will give good results, lance put it Infront of the 78s in his list, but I believe they come with italmil burrs, the mazzers 83mm would be a step up, the SSP are now $400. But that then puts you in duo range.

I’m kinda with @MediumRoastSteam and not because I sold a white grinder to buy a black one too match, that £400 extra opens up more choices

If it were me I’d be buying a metal Bianca and a duo.

I rate the duo for its big burr size and great work flow, no modding, now bellow

BrewLiam

Cuprajake

I know, I shouldn’t care about the colour but I do, especially since I’ll use it every day for years

As one of the few that’s used the Duo and the Zero, does the Duo have everything that makes the Zero great, but with bigger flat burrs?

MediumRoastSteam

BrewLiam - it’s a tricky one. If we could only taste things through the internet hey…

One of the reasons why I’m very skeptical of having any other grinder at the moment despite all the flat burr hype. The Niche Zero workflow is so good that I worry I’d be kicking myself if I have anything else. And for me at least, I couldn’t tell the difference between the Duo and the Zero, for espresso at least. I was expecting the Duo to blow me away in comparison…. But for my humble tastebuds… it didn’t. I suppose that’s a good thing, for me at least! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

DavecUK

BrewLiam As one of the few that’s used the Duo and the Zero, does the Duo have everything that makes the Zero great, but with bigger flat burrs?

Essentially…it does and allows a much better exploration of brewed coffee.

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