I’m looking for some help to make sure im not missing something in my thought process for upgrading. I’m currently using a Sage Barista Express, have been for 2 years now. Whilst I’m getting good results it’s very inconsistent. With zero changes from shot to shot they can act wildly different. So, it’s time to upgrade. I make around 4 drinks a day. Mostly flat whites and the odd americano. Occasionally I’ll make more when people come over and it would be nice in that situation to spend less time stood in front of the machine. My initial thoughts were to get a Lelit Elizabeth and a Niche. Then, Niche announced the Duo so I stalled on my grinder purchase. And then I saw the Timemore 078s and I decided to back that (I might still pull out if I can be persuaded otherwise). The Elizabeth also got the veto from my wife on looks. So, after much research I narrowed it down the the Lelit Bianca and the ECM Synchronika. With the idea that upping my budget will get me both a machine that should last me for years and have the looks to please my other half. I’m edging towards the Bianca due to size and the space it will sit in my kitchen. I think the ECM would block access to the nook that the grinder will live. I’m also strongly considering the extra cash to get a white or black one purely for aesthetics. And if I’m using it every day for years to come it seems worth it. My question is, is there other machines I should be considering? Maybe a little more money and go for a Libra Micra? Or do I even look at HX machines for my needs, would they serve it? Lastly, does anyone have the white or black Bianca and is happy they chose that over the shiny one? Thanks for the help! I feel very fortunate to be considering these machines and want to get it right.

> @"BrewLiam"#p43831 Lastly, does anyone have the white or black Bianca and is happy they chose that over the shiny one? I have a black Bianca and it does look good…I only wish they did it with the same colour knobs as the stainless finish…I personally think it would look even better [upl-image-preview url=https://i.imgur.com/YFTwm7F.jpeg] Here is the black and stainless side by side.

@"BrewLiam"#p43831 I know you have a space issue. There is an Evo on the classifieds for £2K. An excellent value for money. The new would likely cost £3K. https://coffeetime.freeflarum.com/d/713-acs-vesuvius-evo-leva-for-sale-ps2000/40 Btw, welcome to our forum! 😊

@"DavecUK"#p43833 thanks for the side-by-side comparison Dave, not sure I’ve seen them both like that before. Sold on the colour finish vs the other for sure

@"LMSC"#p43835 thanks LMSC, I’ve been a member over on CFUK for a while, came back to it recently to find it nowhere near as active. Stumbled upon this forum recently and glad I found it :). I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did not 😂

There's nearly £600 more in price for a black Vs chrome Bianca The Bianca is a cracking machine, it comes with everything you need to start bar a grinder. Theres the ECM and profitec 700 dual boilers The tech in the Bianca seems more sophisticated than the ECM. The duo is a great grinder, none of them will be out before July, Me I'd have another Bianca in a heart beat. While the la marzocco are nice they are very expensive and won't offer you anything the Bianca won't do.

> @"Cuprajake"#p43839 Me I’d have another Bianca in a heart beat. This is the sort of thing that’s good to hear. Read so much about ECM being much better build quality, which maybe they are, but nice to know people would go back to Bianca’s. The sophistication of them is the main draw for me. And £600 seems crazy for the colour, but I can’t help but prefer it. Appreciate the confirmation of what I was thinking.

They will both make excellent coffee. There will be differences in warm up times etc but at this price point you will get good coffee out of most and it start to come down to looks and little details. Like the Bianca you can move the water tank, most machines that's fixed. There's the ACS Vesuvius pressure profiler too. In this price point but left door fill

> @"BrewLiam"#p43838 I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did Might be worth a second try, it's a cracking machine….produces fabulous coffee and true 15m warmup.

> @"BrewLiam"#p43840 Read so much about ECM being much better build quality, which maybe they are, but nice to know people would go back to Bianca’s The build quality of the Bianca isn't lacking, I honestly can't see anything on mine that screams poor workmanship; the edges are flush and its panels are flat. It's definitely good enough!

> @"BrewLiam"#p43838 I saw the Evo, got all excited about it and I love the idea of the Lever. Showed it the other half when I saw it, hoping she said get it. She did not 😂 Keep trying until she relents. Tell her it’s a fab machine, 2/3 of the new price, makes 10+ bars shots unlike other machines, literally easy to maintain, no need to back flush, blah blah. Don’t take no for an answer. 😁 Between Bianca and Evo, I will choose Evo. If you still go Bianca, it’s a cracking machine. Where do you live?

Please could I get a sanity check on my upgrade thoughts

NHK295M

As a total coffee making novice it is an exciting luxury to get to choose a new machine, I had been thinking about it for years but only took action last year. I whittled my list down to 2 choices the Bianca and Synchronika and eventually went for the Synchronika in anthracite paired with a Niche zero. I don’t think I would have gone wrong whatever my decision and I eventually choose on aesthetics! Thanks to the tips & advice on this forum my set up allows me to replicate consistently good shots…to my uneducated taste buds anyway🙂

I mainly drink Americano and the Synchronika has performed brilliantly shot after shot so with bias I recommend it😆

dfk41

tompoland Never question your wife’s judgement, after all, look whom she married………

chlorox

I would mention the Nurri leva if you need to get past the wife veto in the looks department and want to sell her the idea of a hybrid lever, but the nurri does cost quite a bit more than 2k so It won’t fit the bill if the 2k is a hard limit. But if u r considering expanding the budget for a machine that hits it out of the park in terms of both performance and looks, you won’t be amiss to consider it.

But if the 2k budget needs to be adhered to strictly more or less then at about a little over 2k GBP, how about the vibiemme domobar super electronic double boiler e61?

https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/vibiemme-domobar-super-new-edition-electronic/

I have the original double boiler vibiemme super double domobar that was considered on the forums to be perhaps the best home e61 machine more than a decade ago and it has served me well for all that time since. It appears that the new super electronic version has a lot of pressure profiling abilities available at a really reasonable price and I was alwaya wondered why it wasn’t mentioned more on the forums..

dfk41

chlorox Coffee Italia have earned themselves a dubious reputation over the years on many forums. Remember, the advertised price ought to be subject to both UK vat and import duties, so therefore not as attractive as first appears.

dfk41

Now, back on track, and I pose a question! Without a list of criteria that you make from having done your research, then just how do you decide on a machine? People all tend to believe that the machine they have id the best thing there, and it may well be…but, you have mentioned size so measure up then you can discount anything too big. Do you need a dual boiler for your 2 or 3 flat whites. Make a list of what you want from a machine. I do not know about features as I have never owned either, but both have solid reputations on here.

One thing to remember though. Whatever machine you have, it just makes coffee from whatever you put into it…….no magic involved!

BrewLiam

thanks for all the help, thoughts, suggestions (and a little drama 😉)

dfk41

You’re right and I think the requirements I’m trying to hit are:

Much more consistent than my SBE
Built to last (as much as anything can be)
Can grow with me and my coffee interest. I don’t want to be changing machines or upgrading often at all
Looks good and fits in my kitchen

I don’t know if I need a dual boiler for my needs, was kind of asking the much more experienced folk here.

What I do know is that the more I look, the more I’m drawn to the looks and features of the Bianca. I can see Bella Barista getting a chunk of my money soon.

Thanks for the help everyone. More posts incoming when I can’t use whatever it is I go for 😂

chlorox

dfk41

Good point. For me I think it depends on what one perceives as a limitation of what one has on one’s counter that is seen to be holding one back in the pursuit of a good cup of espresso or latte or cappuccino. If the current machine does everything that one wants a machine to do well enough, then there is no real need to change.

I changed to the vibiemme a long time ago because I wanted more stability in temperature control. Was happy with it till I found myself intrigued by the spring lever and when I had the chance to get an izzo pompei, I went for it and found an immediate improvement in smoothness and flavour. I was very happy with the izzo for many years till I began trying out lighter roasts and then I found the task of changing the temperature of the grouphead of the izzo to be increasingly onerous. So therr arose the need for a hybrid lever and then I saw the photo of a white painted Nurri with zebrawood panels and handles and I knew that if I could fit it unto my budget and it was available locally through a dealer, I needed to get one just like that on my kitchen counter. And so I did and I have been enjoying the best espresso based drinks I have ever been able to make since! As well as a machine whose good looks elevates my entire kitchen too as proven by my wife’s non objection to it! :)

chlorox

dfk41

I didn’t know about that so thanks for mentioning it. I hope the vibiemme is available through other uk based dealers. One factoid about vibiemme - it was set up by the three patent holders for the e61 patent and therefore had the original rights to the “true” e61 grouphead along with Faema. To this day their e61 groupgead is slightly different form the clone e61 grouphead used by every other manufacturer.

dfk41

BrewLiam Here is a curve ball!

https://bellabarista.co.uk/collections/heat-exchanger/products/ecm-mechanika-max-espresso-machine

If you have any questions ask them on this thread as @DavecUK will be able to answer them. In simple terms, it means you do not need to leave a steam boiler running all day as the system gets ready for steaming milk in just a few seconds. If I was in the market for a new machine, I would certainly have a closer look at this, even if I did not buy iy

DavecUK

chlorox One factoid about vibiemme - it was set up by the three patent holders for the e61 patent and therefore had the original rights to the “true” e61 grouphead along with Faema. To this day their e61 groupgead is slightly different form the clone e61 grouphead used by every other manufacturer.

Which actually makes their group the odd one out that only OEM spares are suitable for many repairs/maintenance. In a way it’s a little Ironic 🙄because as you say…theirs is the only genuine E61.

DavecUK

dfk41 ECM Mechanika Max is a very interesting machine

Cuprajake

same price as the bianca nearly though

chlorox

DavecUK

True true…..Another example of that is flow control kits that will fit most e61 clones won’t fit the vibiemme grouphead.

BrewLiam

DavecUK

Hmmm, that does look interesting.

Whilst similar to the stainless steel Bianca in price, I’d highly likely spend the £600 extra for a coloured one however stupid that might be.

Dave, I think my only question on the ECM Mechanika Max if you have experience with it would be, what would I be losing out on by going for this HX machine over a Bianca? Other than the obvious flow control and stuff that comes with the LCC on the Lelit.

Ernie1

BrewLiam Whilst similar to the stainless steel Bianca in price, I’d highly likely spend the £600 extra for a coloured one however stupid that might be.

It’s not stupid at all. You’ve gotta look at it every day in your Kitchen, it’s important you like how it looks.

DavecUK

BrewLiam Dave, I think my only question on the ECM Mechanika Max if you have experience with it would be, what would I be losing out on by going for this HX machine over a Bianca? Other than the obvious flow control and stuff that comes with the LCC on the Lelit.

It’s a use case specific machine…which if I’m honest suits the majority of home baristas.

Very Economical on energy usage
always ready for steaming (no 5-7 minute steam boiler warm up, no wasted energy, no constant high temps as in a dual boiler if the steam boiler is left on all the time)
good brew temperature control, which is selectable and PID controlled
can’t forget and leave it in steam mode

One downside is very quick shots one after the other for 4 or 5 people, where in a dual boiler you have a little more capacity. You can do it, but you would need to use the ECM Barista Max in a different way and have much less temperature control. Or simply pull the shots a little slower. It’s a machine I loved using and have done a video, just need to edit it and upload it.

BrewLiam

DavecUK

Thank you Dave, appreciate the detailed answer.

I’ll do a little more research into this one and maybe you’ll have a video on it before I pull the trigger on a new machine.

Cuprajake

Yeah there’s not much online yet as it’s pretty new

Personally I’d say a dual boiler may be more future proof in terms of temp stability, but if most your stuff esp back to back to back gets dumped in milk it’s not the be all.

Ecm make some nice machines

Bella barista have a discount on the Elizabeth and a profitec 700 atm

BrewLiam

Cuprajake I think at this point the Elizabeth is out.

I’ll have another look at the Profitec 700. I think I originally dismissed it on the basis of looks. But the discount seems decent 👍🏻

dfk41

I think I had a Profitec 700 about 7 or 8 years ago. I have not kept up to speed but has it changed much? When I had one, it was German engineering at its best….but as boring as hell

BrewLiam

dfk41 now you say that, I’m sure I read someone comparing ECM/Profitec with Lelit - saying it’s like a reliable German car vs the fun of an Italian sports car. Not that I have the experience of either in my Spanish car.

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