Thanks go to our host again! Last year I was looking for a solution. We have a bungalow with no chimney so was about to plump for a log burner when at the last moment Dave gave us a better option, which was a British made flueless gas fire. It cost circa 2k to buy and install but has been absolutely fantastic over the winter months at keeping out open plan lounge/kitchen toasty warm. This means that we have not had to heat the rest of the house where we do not occupy during the day, but, for going to bed we have to put the heating on. Anyway, Dave's solution was to have air con installed. It works by having a wall mounted unit in each room that when you turn on, sucks the hot air from the room, to a big box of tricks that then sends it back as cold air. But the clever part, is in winter it reverses so it sucks cold air and returns it as hot air. The fitter has just left after a 2 full day installation and so far, I could not be happier! It does not appear to be noisy and the little play we have had so far is good. So, if anyone needs to replace their boiler perhaps this solution might be worth a look. I will put up a couple of photos of the equipment. Ask any technical questions you like, and I am sure @"DavecUK"#1 will chip in and answer them! [URL=https://i.imgur.com/SbaRGwt.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/SbaRGwt.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/pWdsoAY.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/pWdsoAY.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

A friend of mine, a refrigeration engineer, has a very similar system and swears by it.

@"Systemic"#p46720 A neighbour asked me what it was and I told her a tumble dryer!

Might well go down same route for a project we're hopefully undertaking next year.

@"dfk41"#p46698 Have you got them installed in every room ? I don’t see this as replacing the boiler though. Thx mate.

@"LMSC"#p46727 I have except for the wet room. It is not a hot water solution matey. My 2 year old combi will stay in place and provide our hot water needs and also act as a back up until such time as it no longer works. The options then are to either install electric showers and water heaters or install something like this: https://www.energy-xprt.com/products/big-magic-thermodynamic-box-555906

> @"LMSC"#p46727 Have you got them installed in every room ? I don’t see this as replacing the boiler though. Thx mate. It's very situational, Dave has a bungalow, so many solutions will work that might not work so well in a large property. When/if they ban gas boilers, I will be going down a similar route for heating…with 2 multisplit units across 8 -10 internal cassettes. This is even though there is no 6K grant for air to air systems! This is because a heat pump air to water system would be hugely expensive for my property. I would have to have every radiator and all the microbore replaced with normal pipe. I have at least 12 rads to be replaced with much larger ones…the whole hot water side to be dealt with. **I estimated a cost well in excess of 26K**, which doesn't include redecorating and flooring costs, or most of the hot water costs/shower replacement etc..! All the pipework is either under the floor or in the walls. So even with a grant, the cost is a ludicrous 20K+ for me! An air to air system would cost about 12K with no grant! There is some governmental wrong thinking about properties that are not new build specifically for air to water heat pumps and politicians have some one dimensional thinking which allows us to get ripped off by the heat pump manufacturers. Why is a air to water heat pump 10kW Monoblock from 10K to 12K when a 10kW Multisplit with 5 cassettes can be purchased for 3K…one has to ask what's going on. As we know anything where a grant is involved, we as consumers never see the money (it goes into other pockets)…It was the same with the electric car grant. This winter rather than heat the whole house, I used the inverter aircon in heat mode in the loft room to keep warm in the evenings…way cheaper than what central heating the house would have cost. To be cold, my gas central heating would have cost me £8 per day, so be comfortable £10 per day, frost protection only cost me £4.5 per day which maintained the rest of the house at about 14C. 8 hours of heating the very large loft room nice and warm would only cost about 90p a day max.

@"DavecUK"#p46732 Would be interested to know more about these costings. 90p max to make a large room warm for 8 hours seems amazing - almost too good to be true. At 45p a kWh that would mean (assuming, optimistically, 100% efficiency) you were only putting 250 wH of energy into the room each hour. What kind of voodoo enables you to turn such little power into so much heat?

@"Gagaryn"#p46735 as far as I remember Dave was on a cheaper tariff for electric than that.

> @"DavecUK"#p46732 estimated a cost well in excess of 26K Would rather pay my mortgage off! 😁

Heating your home

LMSC

DavecUK Definitely something worthwhile to consider.

DavecUK The COP of Daves is about 4.4 to 1

This is the coefficient of performance. Does it mean it gives 4.4 kWh output for every 1 kWh consumed. In monetary terms, is one looking at 75% cost savings Dave?

DavecUK

LMSC This is the coefficient of performance. Does it mean it gives 4.4 kWh output for every 1 kWh consumed. In monetary terms, is one looking at 75% cost savings Dave?

Vs an electric bar fire, or convection heater, you are correct. Gas is about 3.5 times price differential vs electricity per kW, so really it’s around parity now and they are looking to increase gas prices, to “persuade” people to get heat pumps.

The COP is a tricky one as it varies by temperature…SCOP can be misleading too. I prefer to think that they will get 4.5 when it’s chilly and when it’s -5 probably around 2.8 ish, mebbe 3.

Dusk

This is interesting to me as I live in a bungalow and am looking to renovate. I would like to be radiator free at least in the living area which I thought would mean under floor heating. I don’t think heat pumps would work for central heating as my house isn’t insulated enough.

DavecUK

Dusk An air to air heat pump would be ideal, especially if it’s an older property and air to water isn’[t suitable. A2W has many disadvantages…one biggie is having to run flow rates of 45 or 50, preferably 45C to get a decent COP figure. In reality this means huge rads and the heating on all the time. If you turn the heating off at night, and the place is cold in the morning, you have a 6 hour wait for it to warm up. Human beings don’t live like that. We like to turn it on during the day and turn it off at nigh when we’re snugged up in bed.

A2A will have a room warm in 10m and you can warm the areas you are actively using. It’s also much cheaper than A2W. Use an instant heater for showers and sinke and ur golden.

LMSC

DavecUK Use an instant heater for showers and sinke and ur golden.

This makes sense However, we would still need to keep the boiler and rads to avoid burst pipes and not invalidate insurance, just in case. Burst pipes during winter are common in our country, is it not?

DavecUK

LMSC Don’t understand, the house would still be heated?

LMSC

DavecUK The pipes connecting the central heating (rads, boilers) ?

We have a * setting on rad valves. That’s 7C , if I am not wrong. So, a heated house thru’ the aircon/inverter wouldn’t keep all the pipe fittings heated and/or auto maintain at 7C in winter, would it?

I do not know / I am not sure. It will be good to understand.

Would it affect insurance claims, should there be an issue? That’s a fine print. I have no idea.

DavecUK

LMSC You can set em for frost protection.

dfk41

LMSC We are caught in an interim period, whereby we have gas central heating commonly. For myself, the ‘air con’, but are being asked to move to heat pumps. I get the names mixed up but I think air to water is the one that attracts the 6k subsidy (if you really believe that). That system needs pipes and radiators. The pipes cannot be micro bore and on the whole you will need far larger radiators due to the lesser heating efficiency and output. For myself, I have fitted ‘air con’ which works independently of my existing heating. If I installed a water solution, then I would have no need of my combi boiler, pipes or radiators, and given time, that is what I will do I reckon.

So in the meantime, I have a gas central heating system that also supplies hot water, and an air con system that does not. Currently Mitsubishi who supplied the gear, do not offer a suitable solution to have a wall unit in the bathroom. I have a work around that and Dave has given me a possible idea to consider.

Hope that helps!

LMSC

DavecUK You can set em for frost protection.

Exactly. That’s what we all do on unused rooms. So, even if we have this system for the whole house (it is likely to be a lot cheaper to run), we still need a boiler in working condition.

I do hope these guys won’t triple the gas prices. People can’t afford.

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC we still need a boiler in working condition.

Presumably you would only need a boiler working if you want hot water provided by a gas fired central heating. If the radiators are defunct, then the pipes leading to them are also defunct. Which means the radiators and pipes could be removed, and the boiler only be used for the hot water circuit.

If your house need to be kept heated above 7C, it doesn’t matter if it’s the boiler which heats it or the air con system.

LMSC

MediumRoastSteam It doesn’t work like that IMO. We could go radiators free with what ever the replacement is. This may be a very expensive option. I do not know.

If radiators are staying, the thermostat needs to be set at freezing setting. This will prevent the pipes from freezing, The aircon can’t the pipes warmer at 7C, as it keeps only the house warmer. As dfk puts it, it is a modern aircon unit.

We don’t want to go around in circles. So, I will stop here and sign out for the week end.

Have a sunny week end every one.

MediumRoastSteam

LMSC - have a good weekend. I was only referring to the pipes having to be kept at 7C or above. I wasn’t talking about cost. If if we follow your rationale, then your cold water pipes would all burst. It’s not about the temperature of specific heated pipes. It’s about the environment temperature surrounding any water pipes.

Anyway. Moving on. 👍😊

dfk41

As you rest over the weekend, my thoughts are this. If you have an air con system and a water solution that does not involve using your central heating, then what use do the rads and pipes play? You could either drain the system down ans leave it, or remove itt completely. Either way, I think it would solve your insurance problem. of course though, the best folks to ask are your insurers!

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