Upgrade from my Lelit Elizabeth ?

JHCCoffee

I am starting to look into an upgrade from my Lelit Elizabeth. It’s an ingeniously designed machine, with good programming control. However I am looking for flow and/or pressure control. Possibly though a lever machine.

I can afford a Lelit Bianca, which is $4,000 Canadian ( about 2,340£).

Should I buy a Lelit Bisnca? Or alternatively?

PS The one aspect of the Lelit Elizabeth that has not impressed me is it’s steam valve, which wears much too easily.

Cuprajake

You would gain flow control if that’s you thing, better steaming, longer warm up times.

Have you ever considered a lever?

The new Evo is getting more improvements all the time.

And judging by your other post it’s right up your street

JHCCoffee

Thanks @Cuprajake

Yes, I would like to be able to pour an espresso shot for drinking without milk that is sufficiently sweet, full flavoured but with significant complexities/nuances, very full bodied (which I presume would be very risttetto), all with good/lingering (persistent) after taste. If a lever can help me achieve that, then great!

However I do not wish to give up the ability to pour cleaner shots, when I want one.

I want to be able to manage my water flow and pressure profile throughout the shot. However, I want the other features available through a modern machine, so IF I go the lever route, the machine will need to ideally have:

separate heating and PID management of each of the brew boiler, steam boiler and group head, to ensure full temperature control and stability.
the ability to easily set and control pre-infusion (water entry-level, pressure and time, incrementally throughout the pre-infusion).
Manual and spring lever control
???

I can only afford to own one machine (my wife would have a bird if I bought a 2nd and kept first, not will she give up the counter space).

So yes, I will closely look at the:

ACS EVO Leva
Londinium
Lelit Bianca
???

I have a budget of $4,000 Canadian (£2,340).

I welcome your thoughts on the pros and cons of the above machines, and other suggestions.

@tompoland

@DavecUK

Thoughts?

DavecUK

JHCCoffee ACS EVO Leva
Londinium
Lelit Bianca
???

ACS EVO Leva (up to date leva, 15m warmup, very temperature stable, twin boiler, can set temperature, reaches target temp in mins after a change, preinfusion can be set using front panel, lots of options)
Londinium (Grossly over priced, very basic, who knows what temperature, long warm up time)
Lelit Bianca (Very good value for money, manual with some nice LCC features such as low flow start/finish, good temp stability, E61 group)
??? (dunno)

tompoland

JHCCoffee late to the thread but which beans are you using? I get nice goopy sweet espresso from pretty much any Kenya AA bean and some Costa Rican. There is no grinder or espresso machine on the planet that can get sweetness out of a bean that’s not in the bean. In order of impact on sweetness its going to be bean, grinder espresso machine.

JHCCoffee

A Nuri Leva would be lovely but (at $8,000 CDN) well outside of my budget.

LMSC

ACS Vostok ! I guess Evo 2 is just the same spec as Vostok.

JHCCoffee

Looking for info and pricing on the ACS Vostok. Googled it, but no luck. Is it substantially more than the Evo Leva? Why should I consider it?

One other challenge. If I go the Evo Leva route, then I would have to buy new tampers, baskets, WDT tools, etc, as the Evo uses a 54mm PTF, right? What does the Vostok use?

Cuprajake

Vostok and Evo start at €3500/3000 respectively

Id say with your budget the Bianca is the best bang, I’d chuck a duo into the mix too

The lever will give you a tiny bit more in the cup but have less scope for playing. But may also be out of budget

Ernie1

With all due respect, adding variables when you’ve admitted struggling to get a decent cup seems like the worst idea.

Honestly, variables are the arch enemy of consistent coffee. Start simple, get some decent beans and minimise variables until you’re making consistent cups you enjoy, then add variables to tweak as required.

Flow control and the ‘accessories’ are supposed to enhance flavours and help unlock additional qualities for those who wish to seek it, they’re not helpers to magically great coffee.

I don’t mean that as a criticism because we all need to find a workflow we enjoy, but honestly, people wonder why they can get a consistent cup and they are trying different temps, shower screens, filters, baskets. Adding flow control into that too seems like a great way to waste a whole lot of money.

JHCCoffee

Ernie1 With all due respect, adding variables when you’ve admitted struggling to get a decent cup seems like the worst idea.

Appreciate your advice and candor.

I actually get a consistently decent milk drink, which is an accomplishment given that I use decaf beans. I’d just like to get a better straight shot, with a taste profile that is close to what I described earlier in this thread. That is not easy to do with decaf. I think that a slower ramp up and ramp down in pressure may help.

So, I will be moving to a Bianca or Evo or ?What are your thoughts on which?

whinmoor85

Ernie1 With all due respect, adding variables when you’ve admitted struggling to get a decent cup seems like the worst idea.

Honestly, variables are the arch enemy of consistent coffee. Start simple, get some decent beans and minimise variables until you’re making consistent cups you enjoy, then add variables to tweak as required.

Flow control and the ‘accessories’ are supposed to enhance flavours and help unlock additional qualities for those who wish to seek it, they’re not helpers to magically great coffee.

I don’t mean that as a criticism because we all need to find a workflow we enjoy, but honestly, people wonder why they can get a consistent cup and they are trying different temps, shower screens, filters, baskets. Adding flow control into that too seems like a great way to waste a whole lot of money.

Agree with all of this. If you’re not in the right ball park with the equipment you’ve got, I’d look at changing the coffee and then work on your technique.

If you want to upgrade equipment, go for it but I wouldn’t expect a night and day difference in the cup. Odyssey Argos might be worth a look for levers with a small footprint.

Ernie1

JHCCoffee

Yeah I’d just echo what’s been said. The Bianca is amazing and if I was buying another machine with a 2k budget I’d get the Bianca in a heartbeat.

One thing that is hugely useful is flow control can (not always) salvage a shot that’s slightly off the right grind. If I thought it was looking like I was a bit coarse on a grind as a shot started I’d drop the flow control right down and you’d usually at least get something drinkable.

It also looks great.

Cuprajake

Saving grace with flow control is you don’t have to use it.

In terms of bang for buck the binca really is the king

Most machines of it quality are more expensive..

OldGregg

Also factor in lead times and your patience. You could have a Bianca at your door in two weeks. ACS seems a little behind their projected schedule at the moment.

Cuprajake

Lelit mass manufacturing ACS bespoke team of twenty making machines…

OldGregg

Cuprajake

I understand the difference - surprised to hear ACS has twenty employees, that video Dave has on his YouTube of the shop tour had like 5-6.

Cuprajake

You know what I mean

drdre89

e61 machines like the Bianca require regular and more maintenance. Just keep that in mind.

JHCCoffee

The Bianca is my #1 for a pump machine.

Still leaving the door open for a lever machine. I was chatting with a gent that had possessed a Decent and then bought an Evo. He says that the Evo was a game changer for him; he just couldn’t get the quality of straight espresso shots with either the Decent that he now gets with an Evo.

But… He’s considering selling his Evo because he will be downsizing his accommodation and won’t have counter space for an Evo. He measured it for me: width is a tad wide but ok, height is ok, depth is HUGE (20 inches)!! Overall footprint is quite large. My wife would have apoplexy over the loss of counter space. And we will be downsizing in a couple of years time, as well.

So…is there another lever option out there for me; an Evo in a somewhat smaller footprint?

And…if any of you Bianca owners out there have a spare moment to measure the width, depth and height of their machine, that would be gratefully appreciated, as I need to be certain that it is not too deep. Online information can sometimes vary from reality … I think it’s 16 inches from the front of the drip tray to the back, but would like to confirm.

Ernie1

JHCCoffee So…is there another lever option out there for me; an Evo in a somewhat smaller footprint?

Olympia Cremina.

Remember a lever needs to be a substantial enough size to stop the machine tipping over when pulling the lever down.

The varying Bianca dimensions you’re seeing might be due to the fact you can mount the water tank on the rear or on either side.