Is a Niche easier to dial in than a Specialita?

skylark

I know its a novices question (and I am) but my Mignon is driving me nuts. I just cant seem to sort a decent grind to compliment my newly purchased Lelit Elizabeth. The grind ‘looks’ ok to me but each time the Lizzie doesnt want to know and it never seems to get beyond a few bar of pressure. Never having used pre-infusion (neither Sage BE or MaraX having any fancy issues like this) combined with my lack of maths ability means that i have no idea when it comes to timing on the Elizabeth with its 3 sec pump-on, stall for Xx number of seconds and then a final timer to get things right. Its all just too much and i’m going through the beans at an alarming rate trying to see just one decent shot! Anyone been there?

DavecUK

skylark The grind ‘looks’ ok to me but each time the Lizzie doesnt want to know and it never seems to get beyond a few bar of pressure. Never having used pre-infusion (neither Sage BE or MaraX having any fancy issues like this) combined with my lack of maths ability means that i have no idea when it comes to timing on the Elizabeth with its 3 sec pump-on, stall for Xx number of seconds and then a final timer to get things right. Its all just too much and i’m going through the beans at an alarming rate trying to see just one decent shot! Anyone been there?

I guess we all have at one time. I would recommend setting Lizzie up for a 9 bar shot, dial in your grind to that. Once you have that nailed…then add preinfusion (expect to have to make the grind a little finer). With the Mignon, you may have to purge a few g of coffee if you change grind settings…to avoid “chasing the grind”.

JHCCoffee

I would try a couple of things.

First, I am curious as to what pressure your OPV valve is set to. Insert your blind basket into your portafilter and let us know what pressure sequence you see. It should peak at 9 to 10 BAR.

If it does reach 9 to 10 BAR, but your shots do not reach 9 to 10 BAR, then either your dose is way too low or your grind is too coarse or you did not tamp hard enough.

If using the blind basket does not get you 9 to 10 BAR, then one cause might be your OPV valve setting. Your retailer can adjust it, if you are not technically inclined.

I do strongly recommend that you watch David Corby’s videos on the Lelit Elizabeth and more importantly read his instructional manuals very carefully.

skylark

Cheers guys. Ran a couple of blind filter tests and seem to be hitting just into the third green bar of pressure consistently. So, is that maxing just over 10 bar, i’m not sure? With a steam pre-infusion i’m seeing just under 3bar (set to 140c steam) and then peaking at around 10.25 bar. Never anywhere around the 9 bar mark, how does that seem? I have one question which would help me further. When timing. lets say an 18gm shot, 3 secs pump time, 8 secs pre-infusion i’d be looking for around 33-38gm out in around 30secs, initially assuming grind and prep are fair, yes? Is this time inclusive of the pump AND pre-infusion time separately (ie 11 secs) or does the pre-infusion incorporate the pump time at 8 secs? Either way, am i then looking at a further 30 secs on top to give me my dose OR does the 30 secs run from the initial button press?

Hope this is understandable as ive just read it back and i’m still confused? Do i pull for 30 secs all in, 38 secs all in or 41 secs all in and hope for 33-38gm out in or around whichever time is the correct one???

Go on, answer me that 😆, i’m still at step 1, get my tamp sorted. I think my 57mm tamper isn’t helping …. am i right in thinking its 58.4 or a tad more for vst baskets? Ive been away from my MaraX for too long, just cant remember.

Thanks for all the help, shouldn’t be too far off a decent pull …. pressure seems a problem though.

DavecUK

skylark I usually add about 50% of the PI time, e.g. 8s PI plus 24s shot = 38s

MediumRoastSteam

skylark Go on, answer me that

I’ll try…

Drop all the nonsense. Start again.

Measure the pressure that you want with the blind filter. Your machine is giving you 10 bar pressure. You may want to reduce to 9bar, to 9.5. Whatever you want. Once you done that, cover that manometer with electric tape and don’t look at it ever again. It has no value apart from reporting that the pump is working correctly.

If you use pre-infusion, aim for a 10 sec total pre-infusion time. This includes the initial pump run.

I aim for a total shot time - from the moment I hit the brew button, therefore including pre-infusion - of around 35 seconds. But I don’t focus on time - I focus on output weight… And when I say I “focus”, I mean that I couldn’t care less if my shot weight is 42g or 36g based on an 18g dose. There’s more to life than that. It’s all guidelines.

Ultimately, that’s up to your tastebuds to tell you what your sweet spot is.

skylark

Thanks Dave. You’ve really confused me now. Is that 28 secs ie 50% of 8secs PI + 24secs = 28secs in total OR 38secs??

DavecUK

PI = 8s I would count this as 4s towards total shot time, not 8.

So if I did a 34 second shot, of which 8s was PI….I would consider that a 28s shot.

skylark

Still confused. Why 28secs and not 30secs. Are you not reading overall shot time of 34 by 4secs in that case? Do you include the time in the advanced settings taken to fill the puck. Think mines set at 3 secs in the overall shot time. So in my case it would be 3secs plus 6secs for steam pi leaving around the 16-20 secs till shot ends? Am I on the right track, I’m thinking not. Shouldn’t my pump pressure be nearer to 9 bar than 10 and a quarter? I’ll leave that one for now, still need a decent pull first… thanks!

DavecUK

skylark Sorry I meant 30s…my math. Also a habit from the ECM Barista Max, where the timer resets after preinfusion. So many machines….

Radecki82

ECM Barista Max? Truly too many machines flying around you 😉

skylark

Gotcha.

35secs? For a bloom AND a steam or slightly longer or shorter dependent on shot type being pulled or dont you change for each shot type there is available? When you say 35secs thats it, shot over irrespective??

MediumRoastSteam

skylark - Nope. I copied all the settings provided by @DavecUK in his review as part of the advanced settings. For both Steam and Boom pre-infusions, I set the time to be 10s. I am for 18g in, 36g out, over 35 seconds, approximate total time.

A bit more, a bit less, I’m not going to stress over it.

So you are going to ask me… “But, when do you actually stop the shot?” When I reach the desired output. If the timing is off, I adjust the grinding accordingly. Do I care if it’s 3 seconds off (plus or minus)? No.

:-)

Also, to hit a more consistent timing, make sure you flush the machine until water comes out of the group. Sometimes it takes approx. 2s for water to show up - which can make a difference in the initial pressure specially when using bloom pre-infusion.

Hope that helps.

skylark

It does help, thanks.

When you say ‘time to be 10s’ are you referring to the shot timer? If so, how do you arrive at 10s using Dave’s settings for steam and bloom?

MediumRoastSteam

skylark - I mean, I’m talking copying Dave’s settings for the advanced settings (the one where you hold + and - together while turning the machine on).

Then on the normal menu items (as in, machine is turned on and working normally, hit the - button) I set brew temp to 93C, steam temp to 140C, pre infusion button 1 and 2 to 10s. These are pure personal preferences.

skylark

Got it now.

So both 1 & 2 buttons use same pre-infusion settings with steam and bloom difffering only by the 3secs and 6secs defined in the advanced settings, yes.

And you set an auto timer for both buttons of 35 secs or do you just stop the shot manually by skipping the timer settings?

MediumRoastSteam

skylark - I don’t set the auto timer. You can if you want. But I’d suggest you nail your routine first, observe, see how it goes and then worry about the auto timer. I find my shots are always within +/- 3 seconds - they are never “spot on” as such.

skylark

Morerorless got beans dialled in just as I ran out !!

Pulled an 18g shot, all well other than a little fast (24secs) so next one will be a smidge finer and all should be just about right for now. Can’t thank you and everyone else enough for humouring me with all of these questions, which you’ll have been asked many times already no doubt. But it all helps so thanks again!! I’m sure i’ll be back but for now ….