Hello and a belated Merry Xmas - and Happy New Year (well, it almost is here!) Any help very very much appreciated ![:)](https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/uploads/emoticons/smile.png.386586528d215eb32622a010fd075179.png ":)") Machine is from 2012. A few repairs and new parts, but it looks like it might be the PID this time... Symptoms: * One day it simply didn't turn on - the PID display that is. Or it went out, my wife can't recall. But after the usual hour left heating up warm water did come out the brew boiler (only approx 70C though). We tried turning it on the following few days (we're optimists 🤣) and no PID display or brew boiler action was to be had. Then one day it did light up and we made coffee, but since then nothing - steam boiler still works as expected and pump operates when brewing - but water is cold. * Voltage across both sets of connectors on PID is 230-236V * There is a connector not plugged into whatver the box with lots of connectors is. The white one to the left of yellow. One would assume it might have slipped off pin 1 ... but the bundles of wires are thick enough and zip-tied well enough that it dones't seem possible as there's to little slack - it would require some decent finger strength and acrobatics to ram it back on there ... if indeed it came from there. Should that loose connector be loose? I'd rather not play russian roulette with it... Anything i should know or check before selling a kidney and ordering a new PID? Thanks again ![:)](https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/uploads/emoticons/smile.png.386586528d215eb32622a010fd075179.png ":)") [URL=https://i.imgur.com/w3i1erF.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/w3i1erF.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/dPdCs4b.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/dPdCs4b.jpg[/IMG][/URL][URL=https://i.imgur.com/0lvwc7D.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0lvwc7D.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/flye2dD.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/flye2dD.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Can you upload a few more photos, pulled back a little, I'm on a phone at moment but can't make out wire you think is loose. Did you own the machine from new?

Dave, i figure if i zoom out it'll be even less clear - have put arrows on the connector which, given the wiring tension and ties could only come from what i assume is pin 7. Or did you mean where does the connector lead - in which case i'll unravel the plastic sheathing around the bundle and follow it 👍 I'm not the first owner - i assume i'm the second. 18 months ago i fitted a new OPV and de-aerator (plus a new pump i had laying around). Only other issue is that the pressure doesn't purge from the group and if not left for 30 seconds or so to escape, and splurts out when the portafilter is removed. But assume that is E61 maintenance i've been putting off and not related to this? [URL=https://i.imgur.com/2bz5bAD.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/2bz5bAD.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/yPBQvPl.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/yPBQvPl.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

The machine is later than the ones I reviewed, I reviewed a 2006 and a 2009 version, in that time the old AKO fridge controllers which failed all the time were replaced with Gicar PID units. I asked for pictures more pulled back because the machine looked odd to me…but now I am on the PC and have checked, it's probably because it's a later model. I think the machine may have had some modifications from standard which makes it tricky. I think the wire that's disconnected might be something to do with low water detection? **Does low water detection from the machines plastic tank, work for your machine?** The Gicar PID has tape all over the top ventilation slot, fortunately it looks to have come loose some years ago. That PID is the version with the display and components in a single box and it likes to be cool. This is because the little hahn on board transformers only have a 55C rating. Sometimes they fail and you can desolder them and outboard an external transformer with a bit of bellwire. I did one on a MK1 Izzo Alex Duetto many years ago now…we're talking over a decade. The best thing you can do is remove the PID and open it up, have a look. I also wonder what happened to the tape, so look for any signs of water damage as well as a failed transformer on the board. **The PID has that thermistor connection, but one wire seems to be going to the side of the boiler with a bit of tape or something round it? What's that all about?** Is there a join under there that's been taped up. If it has become disconnected, PID would still work, but give a AL1 AL2 error

@"DavecUK"#p2803 Dave, thanks for your insight and pointers. 1. **Low water detection works** - depressing/releasing the switch under the water tank results in an audible click from the relay at the base of the machine along with a flash of a green LED within it. Of course without being depressed nothing works - i used the brew pump as a test given the PID display is under investigation here. 2. **PID tape was pretty much intact** (yellowing and crusty/fragile) until i poked a hole in it with a multimeter to check the PID terminal voltages - probably since 2012 :( 3. **PID board looks good** - it's not my specilaity subject but it looks fine and doesn't smell toasted. No sign of water stains or damage of any kind. 4. I've stuck a **multimeter** across the pins of the **Hahn** transformer . 236V. Output pins show 2.53V and 0.14A (only if i touch one pin - reads zero if across both). Values fluctuate a bit, might be my crappy meter. 5. **Thermistor cable is spliced** - on both wires. No idea why, or why someone used parcel tape to cover the joins. It worked until the pid went dark. I assume continuity isn't the problem else there'd be a display of sorts. Also noticed on the vibe pump, across the label in a vetical 'splatter/pattern' is a very fine black powder that looks soot, like a candle flame would leave on a surface. I'm sure it wasn't there when i fitted it, if nothing else i'd have smuged it during installation - but vibe pump is working and the nearby relay is clicking. Weird. [URL=https://i.imgur.com/YAyZl7T.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/YAyZl7T.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/ECxPEvM.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ECxPEvM.jpg[/IMG][/URL] [URL=https://i.imgur.com/v9pixlj.jpg][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/v9pixlj.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

I suspect it's had some "repairs before you bought is, the thermistor wires should really have a connector, someone's probably replaced them and simply cut the connector off in the machine and twisted the wires together. If it were me, I would probably check them,…if they are twisted, part them, put a bit of heat shrink on…twist them neatly and flow a bit of solder over them and then heat shrink it. The transformer used is different, but you seem to be getting half the voltage out, as it's AC/AC, your meter is probably just seeing the half wave, it later goes through a rectifier and voltage controller. The board looks OK…but from what you have said, it sounds like it may well have gone. I think you have no option but to buy another and don't put tape on it. The vibe pump ink can actually smear…that's a thing 🙂

Expobar Office Leva DB 4 - dead PID?

brabzzz

Thanks again for the quick and helpful reply.

I have spent the evening googling ‘Minima vs Sage vs Elizabeth’ 🙄 but it would be rude not to order a new PID and give it a crack first 👍. Will get onto it.

I’m drawn to replacing all the wiring as what’s there looks like the rigging of an old pirate ship - but right now i’m just craving a coffee and don’t want to break any more than is already shot!

DavecUK

brabzzz Definitely leave the wiring alone for now. I have a couple of 50 year old pinball tables and trust me, less is more.

brabzzz

DavecUK

Before i go order, on the offchance something might need adding to the order… it isn’t purging portafilter pressure after brewing. By the time milk is poured and more coffee ground it can be safely removed, or the brew lever can be lifted almost back to the brew position and it releases (which didn’t used to be necessary) - is this a clear case of X, Y and Z needs replacing - if not i’ll deal with the PID first…

DavecUK

brabzzz I’m guessing you perhaps didn’t always remove the brew leaver after backflushing with cleaner (Puly Caf), dry the cam and pins, then lubricate them and the lever shaft before replacing it?

If so, then I would imagine the group cam follower pins are badly worn and require replacement (you would do the little seals at the same time). If you can get those little parts. Undoing them often snaps the thread off, so you may well need new valves…which come with pins (which should be loosened of their thread lock before fitting) and seals

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/e61-lubrication

I suspect your bottom cam follower pin is worn enough that it no longer open the vent valve properly….or it’s been so long since cleaning with puly, that the vent valve is completely blocked.

brabzzz

DavecUK

Yeah, i’m regretting not reviewing your site more recently (i last did years ago) - i was doing a weekly chemical backflush and blissfully ignorant of the fact that wasn’t enough - so that’s at least 3 years of the group not being maintained or lubricated 🤦

Pins definitly a pain to find - only place i found is stateside - but the Germans seem to have everything that might be required and figured i might as well get the valves because with my luck the threads will pop, as well as anything rubbery.

brabzzz

DavecUK

No kidding about the pins - they’re definitly not flat anymore.

Does the cam problematically too?

DavecUK

brabzzz Hard to tell with the cam, it’s actually Bronze, so harder than the brass pins, usually it doesn’t wear…so might well be OK. For sure it’s the cause of your venting problems and may well be causing other problems apart from a notchy lever.

I think Bella Barista in the UK have rebuild kits, you should check their pricing as well.

I think you may well definitely need the number 8s, on the list (the group takes 2 of them), they are the lever stem valves…for that leak from the lever stem you either have not notced, or perhaps bothered to mention. If you don’t have a leak yet, you will soon.

you also need a top valve and vent valve….before you order, put the list up here and I can tell you if anything is missing.

PS strip your group down completely and take a photo of all the parts

brabzzz

DavecUK

I have not noticed a leak - yet.

Would love to support BB (i live 15 mins down the road) but i’m in mainland Europe for the forseeable future which means it’s not an option unless i pop back :( Looking at all the bits it does seem a repair kit makes more sense - so in lieu of a list is a pic of the components included, which i assume covers the bases 🧐 There are 5 springs in the kit and a metallic ring/washer/seal though, and i’ve removed 4 springs and no shiney ring - unless i missed them or they need a scrub?

DavecUK

That looks like everything u need, and some bits u don’t like the dispersion disk or the Gicleur.

Elcarajillo

A tub of Pulycaffe and some Dow Molykote 111 , descaler ?

brabzzz

Yay! PID arrived and now the lights are back on.

E61 kit arrives early next week so that’ll go in then. Already have pulycaffee and foodie lube ready - it’s going to get some much overdue tlc 🙂

Have spent the last couple of days researching ‘plan B’ options. Though slightly disappointed that i can’t go shopping for a new machine i’m happier still that this one can do another few years. Thanks for helping keep this beast on the road!

DavecUK

brabzzz That machine will go for a very long time if you keep on top of the maintenance. If you ever decide to get a new machine, it will serve someone else well too.