A search for high quality beans

tobyjrn6

Along the same lines as Coffeetime Voldemort’s video from fairly recently, I am really curious if you guys have some examples of UK roasters who specifically buy high quality greens without fleecing you.

It is very hard to dig through the chaff and marketing to understand how good the underlying coffee we are buying actually is, versus how much it has been inflated.

These may not even be way more expensive at retail (in fact I would expect not in many cases), but nothing irks me more than splashing out a little bit more on coffee (especially on some London based roasters) expecting a higher quality product, only for it to be average because there is no transparency of quality.

For example:

Take Roaster A (ripoff with more marketing focus) and roaster B (quality focused), assuming an unrealistically flat market for greens and relatively arbitrary numbers

Roaster A buys 82-84pt greens = £7/kg

Roaster B buys 86-89pt greens = £14/kg

Roaster A retail = £30-40/kg

Roaster B retail = £45-50/kg

How can we seek out roasters like Roaster B?

whinmoor85

tobyjrn6 Doesn’t answer your question regarding UK roasters but Sey and Onyx over in America publish their green coffee costs.
https://www.seycoffee.com/collections/coffee
https://onyxcoffeelab.com/collections/coffee

Waitforme

If you ever find out then be sure to let us know 👍

I’d reckon any London based roaster is going to be more expensive due to the higher overheads.

I think it’s a bit of trial and error, I’ve bought “expensive for me” beans and not really noticed any significant differences in beans ½ to ⅔ of the price.

InfamousTuba

It depends on what style of beans you like, roast level and the type of origins you prefer. If you find something you like there will usually be a roaster that can suit your preferences

tobyjrn6

InfamousTuba hahaha this is such a non-answer. The style that roaster favours doesnt dictate the quality of the beans they buy and doesnt really give you any additional info unless they advertise the scores or prices they paid.

You’d expect some correlation between roasting lighter and higher quality beans because more origin character will come through but I’m sure there are plenty who favour more development and buy high quality beans. Similarly there will be some buying shit beans putting out lighter roasts.

This post was more in relation to discovering/uncovering those who buy high quality. I say this having worked at a roastery in a past life and being good friends with others who own/work at other roasteries, as the lack of transparency and variation in profit margins makes it very hard for consumers

MWJB

tobyjrn6 but I’m sure there are plenty who favour more development and buy high quality beans.

But I still feel like I’m being ‘fleeced’ if I buy good quality coffee that then just largely tastes of generic roast artefacts, rather than reflects the notes & cup score - as happens more often than I like.

I don’t really see why roasters should essentially declare their mark up, this isn’t typical in the market place.

Cup scores are not typically reflective of the production roast you actually pay for.

Decide what you want to pay, brew taste & move on/discuss with that specific roaster if you have issues.

All roasters sell coffee at a range of price points, all sell at least a product I would never drink, so I don’t see the practical protection provided by cup score & green vs roasted price.

More better roasters would make life easier for consumers…and you still pay what you are comfortable paying (as with anything else).

InfamousTuba

tobyjrn6 Yes it is a generic response, if you want some more specific examples I woud say blossom coffee has been really good for me, along with lucid (even if I don’t like some of the green choices). Spaceboy based in edinburgh roasts very well (especially the filter roasts) on a hand built roaster and is good value.

Tim wendelboe subscription is also good value proposition, consistent and easy drinking washed coffees.

I think until roasters provide consumers more information on the price they are paying for green it will be hard to work out the best value, and also value is subjective. I wouldn’t pay high prices most of the time for anaerobic coffees because I don’t find them to taste good to me, even if they have very high cup scores and are roasted well. But for other people that would be perfect.

For me I prefer a coffee from a region/process I like that is roasted in a style I like and roasted consistently. I really liked last years natural bombe from nomad, I could find the same coffee for cheaper from other roasters but it doesn’t mean it is roasted as well. Picky Chemist is an example of incredibly well roasted, high quality greens but the greens are expensive so it might not be a good value propostion for some people.

tobyjrn6

InfamousTuba completely agree on all the points here, and i certainly think the same in a broad sense. I suppose I am not looking at the value of the product holistically here, i am working on an assumption of all roasting quality and preferences being held equal, which is very rarely the case in reality.

I do also think we as specialty coffee consumers maybe historically haven’t attached enough thought/important to how much the actual quality (as opposed to just origin and processing) of the raw product impacts the cup, particularly when you are after lighter roasts that all show origin more clearly. This is definitely increasing lately, but i don’t know if the retail market has fully caught up to that except in a niche few places.

Equally maybe i am unnecessarily splitting hairs

Also some great recommendations in here, thanks, I’ll throw Unorthodox into the mix though they definitely favour more funky processing methods!

Beverast

Personally I think you will really struggle to get roasters selling a kilo of 86-89 point for £14 - to be honest I think that is pretty unrealistic. I roast my own coffee and now and again sell it to a couple of my workmates - all the greens I have are 86-89 points. I don’t have a wholesale account but through a group on Facebook have managed to get some high scoring greens at wholesale. The lowest I have gone is £5 for 250grams - I am not making any profit whatsoever (in a lot of cases I am making a loss) once you take into account the electricity used, the packaging, the printing etc. But making a profit is not my aim - it’s an enjoyable hobby that I want to share with friends. Point is, these companies probably have massive overheads, far more than what I have.

Blackcat Cofee for me have always brought out great coffee, for example the La Esperanza Mandela from late last year, which was £21 for 500grams - I can pretty much guess that if they sold it at £14 a kilo they would be making a loss at worst, breaking even at best (I have no idea what the wholesale price is for these greens). I highly doubt they would be making any sort of profit at £14 a kilo for those beans. It more comes down to what you are willing to pay and what your threshold is. I thought that £21 for 500grams was a fair price for these beans - they were delicious by the way.

dutchy101

Beverast overheads, far more than what I have.

Blackcat Cofee for me have always brought out great coffee, for example the La Esperanza Mandela from late last year, which was £21 for 500grams - I can pretty much guess that if they sold it at £14 a kilo they would be making a loss at worst, breaking even at best (I have no idea what the wholesale price is for these greens). I highly doubt they would be making any sort of profit at £14 a kilo for those beans.

This was the best coffee I’ve ever had. Absolutely amazing. Bought 2 kilos of it and still have 250g left in the freezer which I don’t want to use because I want to have it there

tobyjrn6

Beverast Personally I think you will really struggle to get roasters selling a kilo of 86-89 point for £14

This was the price the roaster might pay for the greens, have updated the original post for clarity

LMSC

dutchy101 Try Blackcat’s Colombian Tabi. Excellent coffee, complex flavours and the highest scoring coffee (92.5) I have had so far. Priced at £16.5 per 250g.

Cuprajake

Something is only a ripoff if you feel it is

With any skill. You are paying for that skill, not just the product.

Yes there can be better quality products used

Me as a body shop I use axalta branded water based products, which are far better than what the local Fred in a shed uses. Yet we charge similar prices, my overheads are huge, esp compared to the Fred in a shed. I just choose or am limited not to charge what I feel is a higher price

tobyjrn6

Cuprajake completely agree here, and i understand that a good roaster can do a whole lot more with say an 85pt coffee than a bad roaster could with something in the upper 80s.

I guess the point of the post was to say all other things being equal, i wish there was a bit more transparency into the inherent quality of the raw product, given that is very often information that exists but is withheld, and on a few occasions I feel that I’ve been disappointed as a result

Platypus

I thought roasters were having to cut profit margins to the bone at the moment and many struggling to keep their heads above water.
I imagine it’s a really tough business to be in at the moment especially with the current economic climate and peoples expectations going up and up but not wanting to fork out for them. Many people seem to want really good quality “speciality” coffee , skilfully roasted within a whisker of being under developed and with free postage for peanuts.
I don’t envy them for one second and most do a pretty darn good job at trying to keep everyone happy.

tobyjrn6

Platypus completely agree here. I know where i used to work they would charge for a kilo roasted approx what they would pay for 250g greens. Can’t imagine that is the case anymore, despite retail prices increasing as they have

dutchy101

Will take a look, cheers

MediumRoastSteam

tobyjrn6 - I recently bought from Wogan roasters in Bristol, https://wogancoffee.com/.

They do advertise the SCA score of the coffee you are buying and their prices are very reasonable. As said above, it doesn’t mean much.

Cuprajake

personally i think they don’t need to, and should let there roasting do the talking,

ive seen September coffee do the price thing and i know lance has mentioned it, perhaps its a youtuber thing,

me i dont care what they pay, im using a subscription atm with dog and hat, yes its not cheap for what you get but its different every month, sometimes for the good sometimes for the bad

Ernie1

I agree there are big name roasters charging a fortune for mediocre coffee but I think you have to factor expertise and heritage into some pricing. Promotion costs these days are also fairly relative regardless of location given the power of social media for spreading the word at no cost.

Purely out of coincidence I lived round the corner from three roasters as they started and grew in London. Square Mile, then Dark Arts, then the London roastery outpost of AllPress.

I’d buy beans from Dark Arts in 2014-15 when it was literally one dude roasting a PNG on a fairly small Diedrich in a railway arch. It wasn’t bad, but over time their relationships with farmers grew, their staff grew and visited some of the farms etc and now their offerings are really solid and diverse.

AllPress started in like 1990 in Melbourne so again brings huge heritage and experience growing among arguably the biggest third wave scene.

Ozone is another one that has an exceptionally high level of knowledge of coffee in general and as a result produces expensive, but very good coffee.

I’m not saying they’re all bad but I think you’ve gotta expect to pay a premium when it’s not ‘some guy bored with his day job in BFN who had great coffee once and bought a roaster’. There are a lot of businesses shipping high volumes of really average coffee.

You can indeed get great coffee for £10 a kg just as you can get awful coffee got £40 a kilo but of all the commodities I think coffee can often be one where the price is reflective of the quality you’re getting.

MWJB

whinmoor85 The character mentioned in the OP works for Onyx.