Happy new year all. I have come to the point where I want to upgrade from my DIY PID Gaggia Classic to something a bit better. I have been looking at the Sage Dual Boiler then spotted the reviews on the Lelit espresso machines done by Dave. Grinder wise I am running a modified RR45, probably going to get a Nice later in the year. For water I use Ashbeck from Tesco. I mainly drink flat white or americano, only a couple a day, but more at the weekend. Current front runners are the Lelit Elizabeth and the Sage DB, any others I should be looking for? Cheers Jon

@"JonC"#p2945 The Lelit will last you into the next century, whereas Sage have demonstrated reliability problems continually. They are very hard to get parts for and once outside of warranty, a liability. Not to say with practice you cannot make a reasonable cuppa but caveat emptor

@"JonC"#p2945 - hello there! I think they are both cracking machines. I have he Elizabeth, and I really rate it and enjoy. I don’t think the SageDB would be any different, and it has a better pre-infusion mechanism than the Elizabeth. The downside of the Sage is durability. They don’t have a great reputation, and it’s pretty much a buy-it-again product rather than fix it, which is a shame. Spare parts are not easily sourced either. So when I was in the same boat as you trying to make that call, I went with the Lelit for the reasons above.

Hands down Lelit Elizabeth compared to Sage. Water ?

@"LMSC"#p2956 > @"JonC"#p2945 For water I use Ashbeck from Tesco. I’d go for Lelit, I own a Mara, not seen an Elizebeth but I’ve seen a sage and the build quality is not the same.

@"JonC"#p2964 I think the Peak might be one to stay away from.

As is ashbeck Volvic is prob the best @"Rob1"#171 iirc I fell into ashbeck being good. I make my own.

Hi all and upgrade time

JonC

LMSC

No thanks, just heading out for Sunday lunch down the pub so will have a pint of Larkins Trad ;)

Joking aside, that’s a bit of a concern, going to start with Ashbeck or possibly a Peak Water treatment jug. I do need to read up on options, BWT jug looks like another option.

DavecUK

JonC I think the Peak might be one to stay away from.

Cuprajake

As is ashbeck

Volvic is prob the best @Rob1 iirc

I fell into ashbeck being good.

I make my own.

Waitforme

Cuprajake As is ashbeck

Volvic is prob the best @Rob1 iirc

I fell into ashbeck being good.

I make my own.

My understanding is that Ashbeck is ok with some Bicarbonate of Soda added to raise the alkalinity 🤔

Apologies for the thread derail.

PS. I’d also go for the Lelit. 👍

HVL87

Apparently Waitrose essential (lockhills) is the best of bottled, which is what I use with my Minima. Then Volvic.

Dumnorix

I have the Sage and it can definitely make good coffee. I bought it 4 years ago as there was an interest free credit deal with Dawsons e Cookshop and at the time I couldn’t afford anything else. I am concerned about the long term reliability, but after 4 years of being used once/ twice a day it is absolutely fine. All I have done is regular back flushing and cleaned/ descaled when the machine asks me to. I have always used Waitrose Lockhills water. I only steam infrequently as I mainly drink espresso/ short blacks.
I have been considering selling the Sage to get something like an Elizabeth, but having kept an eye on Ebay I won’t get very much for it, so I’m probably better off running it until it dies or the repair bill is more than the machine is worth.

JonC

Dumnorix I do wonder if the people that have problems are high usage users. I know its a bit subjective but is it noisy? It would be handy if I can switch to a quieter machine, I cannot currently get away with making a coffee before going to work, my wife would kill me :(

Dumnorix

JonC
I don’t think it’s that noisy- it certainly doesn’t disturb anyone upstairs when I use it in the kitchen.

Cuprajake

If you want quiet then your into big money or manuel machines, gear and rotary pumps tend to come on £1500 plus machines.

Alot who buy sage, no offence can be a little bit new to coffee, and id guess alot of them just use tap water. Which will scale and not help the machine.

Dumnorix

Cuprajake
Yes, I think you are spot on. There is even a very helpful label when you lift the flap to fill the water reservoir telling you to fill it with water not milk!! I assume a fair few people must have done exactly that for Sage to bother- it’s a proper printed message rather than just being stuck on. I guess a lot of people with that mindset wouldn’t think twice about what sort of water they put in, and probably wouldn’t backflush either.

LMSC

Waitforme I do remember @MWJB responding to one of the threads here suggesting Waitrose’s lockhills or Volvic.

JonC

Waitforme

The water thing is interesting, I have access to various grades of water at work, one setup is used to prep 100L+ of water for cleaning optical equipment, think we also have an Elga Purelab :) Might even have some toys to analyse water quality, unfortunately I no longer have access to HPLC or LCMS. I do have an ex colleague that owns a water quality lab.

Waitforme

Quoting MWJB
“Ashbeck is about 20mg/l alkalinity, you want 40-50mg/l. Let’s call it 45mg/l for arguments sake.
Sodium bicarbonate added to water gives a result of about 60% as alkalinity.
So divide 25 (20mg/l you already have, plus what you need to hit 45mg/l) by 60 and you get 40mg/l of sodium bicarbonate, multiply this by 5l and you add 200mg to 5l of Ashbeck. Use 0.01g scales to measure this out.”

@LMSC , perhaps I heave misunderstood , very likely 😳

But, what I thought @MWJB meant was he didn’t like the taste of Ashbeck, it didn’t scale the Brew boiler and if SB was added it got rid of the potential corrosion / taste issue from the low alkalinity?

LMSC

Waitforme On the same thread, he does advise using Lockhills or Volvic.

I don’t use bottled on my machine. Perhaps, they are the best and the safest bottled water options. 😊

Doram

Dumnorix Yes, I think you are spot on. There is even a very helpful label when you lift the flap to fill the water reservoir telling you to fill it with water not milk!! I assume a fair few people must have done exactly that for Sage to bother- it’s a proper printed message rather than just being stuck o

Interesting idea. Does anyone know if milk would scale in the boiler? ;-)

Dumnorix

God only knows what it did to the boiler in the cases when it actually happened- probably a bit like a car blowing a head gasket.

alex68

JonC I used to have Sage DB but eventually upgraded to Lelit Bianca and since then /2years/ very happy with the choice .

JonC

Thanks for all the info. I have decided to scratch the grinder itch first and get on the list for a Niche. My RR45 is bad for retention, changing beans or grind wastes loads of beans. I did some mods to help with static so at least thats not an issue, and converted it to small / single dose. Looks like Niche have the UK black available in Feb, so fingers crossed. Will order probably get the Elizabeth in March for my birthday.

Cheers

Jon